Monk V. Irvin

[Yakuza Rich]

Monk may not have gotten the huge stats, but he didn't have some of the advantages that Irvin had. Irvin never had a homerun hitter on the opposite end of the field like Monk did in Clark. That's like playing opposite of Santana Moss.

Monk also didn't have a guy of Troy Aikman's caliber throwing him the ball every year. He had a bunch of role players that got the job done. Theisman was probably the best and then there was Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien. None of them world beaters.

You also have to factor in two strike shortened seasons and that Ricky Sanders came in and along with Monk and Clark also got over 1000 yards recieving.

I don't think Irvin ever had a reciever on the same field that got over 1000 yards did he? Let alone 2 other guys.


Now don't take any of this as me bashing Irvin, because I agree he was one of the best and belongs in the Hall, I'm just saying that Monk performed pretty well considering the circumstances.

Still, you're getting into a bit of a semantics argument. One could argue that with Clark's presence to stretch the field deep, that opened up Monk underneath. And because just about every team will always protect against defending the deep ball over the short ball, I'd say that Clark definitely opened things up for Monk.

OTOH, one could argue that without another receiving presence Irvin could easily be double and even triple teamed.

I'll never say that Monk didn't produce "pretty well", but this is the HOF, not the Hall of "Pretty Well."

Again, I don't think Swann or Joiner should be in and Monk is more worthy than either of them (and Stallworth as well), but I'm not a believer in using the "he got in, so he should get in." I'm a believer in "this guy was one of the best players in the game and/or at his position for X number of years and he should get in because of that."


Rich............

 

[wxcpo]

Not even close, Irvin hands down deserves a ticket to Canton over Monk. Teams never feared Monk and never really game planned to stop him like they had to with Irvin. Monk wasn't even the best WR on his team when the Commanders were in their prime and winning superbowls.

Monk may have the stats that say he belongs, but that comes from playing as long as he did, not the fact that he dominated at his position. Only 3 times in his career was he in the top 10 of receiving yards and only once was he in the top 10 of TD catches. Irvin on the other hand was in the top 10 of receiving yards 6 times and in the top 10 of TD catches 5 times. Had Irvins career not been derailed due to injury there would be no debating who was the better WR and I don't understand why there even is.

IMO the difference between Irvin and Monk is the same as the difference between Jerry Rice and Keyshaun Johnson.

 

[Idgit]

i agree with a lot of you, both should be in. Wouldnt it be nice if both Monk and Irvin got in the same year?? Monk has been waiting a bit longer though so it has been more painful. No doubt in my mind that Irvin will get in, it just depends on how long the voters will make you cowboys fans wait. Will it be as long as they have made us Commander fans wait?? Doubt it.

Some Commanders fan should send a link to this thread to Peter King.

 

[riggo]

It depends on how you look at things.

When it comes to wide receivers, I generally look at yards and touchdowns. Receptions have their place, but I believe yards and TD's are far more important.

as was pointed out already, irvins TD numbers didnt blow you away, but he accounted for some nice yardage on a team where emmitt took the load. through 12 seasons (irvins 12th ended early, but even so, he had one TD the previous season) monk had 60 TD's - even though 14 games were lost due to the strikes. irvin had 65 TD's. monk=60 TDs thru 173 games, irvin=65 in 159 games. thats not a huge difference.

monk actually had more receptions over that time. its difficult to hold that against him.

From my perspective, Monk shouldn't sniff the HOF because he rarely was in the top 10 in receiving yards in a season and rarely in the top 10 in TD's as well.

However, the HOF doesn't really have any rhyme or reason to their voting. So while I don't believe Monk belongs, I can see a supporter's point when they look at guys like Charlie Joiner and Lynn Swann are in the HOF and they weren't all that great statistically.

swann was very good in his time. his numbers are not great. but i would argue that there is one thing that should put monk in, and that is the fact that he has held some very impressive records.

-he has more receptions than anyone currently in the hall and briefly held the record of 940 before one jerry rice broke it.
-he held the record for receptions in a season with 106 (the next closest WR, stallworth, had 80). this record has nothing to do with the longevity of his career, which is one of the criticisms against monk.
-he held the record for consecutive games with a reception.


as was brought up already, monk put up those number with 4 QB's throwing to him that will never make the HOF. irvin had aikman.

Irvin on the other hand should definitely be in. He played in on a run oriented team in an era where passing records with the run and shoot and West Coast offenses were going through the roof. Despite that, his stats stack up very well on a year by year basis against his peers.

monk and irvin both played on run oriented teams. i believe both should be in. monk should get a boost because of his records- although irvin doesnt have any records, it wont and shouldnt keep him out of the hall.

think about it- they guy who set a record for catching more passes- which is what receivers are paid to do- is not in the hall. there is no way you keep that guy- no matter what team he played for- out.

peter king said that 'irvins 750 career receptions and 3 super bowl rings make him a lock for the hall'. too bad he is against monk being in the hall with 940 receptions and 3 rings. and he went to another SB, btw.

 

[Vintage]

Sad thing is, neither will get in....

My money is on neither.

 

[firehawk350]

Not even close, Irvin hands down deserves a ticket to Canton over Monk. Teams never feared Monk and never really game planned to stop him like they had to with Irvin. Monk wasn't even the best WR on his team when the Commanders were in their prime and winning superbowls.

Monk was also one of the only players that played in all 3 super bowls. He was consistent and a key part of the offense. He was probably one of the best possession receivers in the game, ever.

Monk may have the stats that say he belongs, but that comes from playing as long as he did, not the fact that he dominated at his position. Only 3 times in his career was he in the top 10 of receiving yards and only once was he in the top 10 of TD catches. Irvin on the other hand was in the top 10 of receiving yards 6 times and in the top 10 of TD catches 5 times. Had Irvins career not been derailed due to injury there would be no debating who was the better WR and I don't understand why there even is.

Would of, should of, could of. Had Barry Sanders been on a decent team, he may have not retire prematurely and he would be the all-time rushing leader. Even so, Irvin wasn't exactly a spring chicken when he went down, he had a decent amount of playing time.

IMO the difference between Irvin and Monk is the same as the difference between Jerry Rice and Keyshaun Johnson.

Wow, Irvin is nowhere close to Jerry Rice and Keyshawn is no where close to Monk. To prove your point, you could say something to the effect that the difference between Monk and Irvin is the same as between Hines Ward and Keyshawn.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

as was pointed out already, irvins TD numbers didnt blow you away, but he accounted for some nice yardage on a team where emmitt took the load.

Yes, but while TD's are more important than receptions...IMO, I'd still take yards over TD's. Against his peers, Irvin was consistently in the top 10 in yards each season. Monk was in the top 10 three times.

through 12 seasons (irvins 12th ended early, but even so, he had one TD the previous season) monk had 60 TD's - even though 14 games were lost due to the strikes. irvin had 65 TD's. monk=60 TDs thru 173 games, irvin=65 in 159 games. thats not a huge difference.

monk actually had more receptions over that time. its difficult to hold that against him.

Yes, but against their peers, Irvin finished in the top 10 in receiving TD's 5 times. Monk finished in the top 10 once.

The game changes over time. For example, in the 60's if you posted an 80 QB rating, you were probably leading the league that season. Now you'd be considered pretty average. Monk on a season-to-season basis against his peers wasn't all that impressive. Irvin OTOH was very impressive.

-he has more receptions than anyone currently in the hall and briefly held the record of 940 before one jerry rice broke it.
-he held the record for receptions in a season with 106 (the next closest WR, stallworth, had 80). this record has nothing to do with the longevity of his career, which is one of the criticisms against monk.
-he held the record for consecutive games with a reception.

Again, IMO, receptions are of minimal importance to me compared to yards and TD's. That's a big reason why more teams are getting rid of fullbacks and replacing them with H-Backs and TE's. Theoretically a fullback could easily get more receptions than a #2 TE or an H-Back, but they probably won't get as many yards and are much less of a receiving threat. For all of the receptions Monk got, he had an abnormally low amount of yards (and thus yards per catch). He was definitely an important player for the Skins, but I don't see him as an HOF'er when he can only finish in the top 10 in yards three times and in the top 10 in TD's once....despite all of those receptions.

\think about it- they guy who set a record for catching more passes- which is what receivers are paid to do- is not in the hall. there is no way you keep that guy- no matter what team he played for- out.

Receivers are paid to emass yards and score TD's. I'm not saying Monk shouldn't be in the HOF because he's a Skin. He's a Syracuse alum and that will always endear me to him. But when I look at his yards and TD's on a season-to-season basis, I don't believe he should be in.

peter king said that 'irvins 750 career receptions and 3 super bowl rings make him a lock for the hall'. too bad he is against monk being in the hall with 940 receptions and 3 rings. and he went to another SB, btw.

I agree King's reasoning is flawed. But he's the same guy that doesn't think Bob Hayes belongs despite Hayes easily being one of the very best WR's in his era at emassing yards and TD's.

Rich...............

 

[Rack]

Didn't see this posted anywhere:

Which of these two players deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more?

Art Monk
Michael Irvin

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/

scroll down to get to the poll.

Monk vs Irvin would be like Hellen Keller vs Mike Tyson.


Irvin deserves to be in the Hall more. He wasn't just out there putting up numbers. He was the key impact player for 3 superbowl teams. Not just a key contributor. There's a difference.

 

[sacase]

Ok first get the facts right Monk played in 224 Games Irvin in 159. Monk played in 65 more games than irvin yet he only has 3 touchdowns more and 800 yards more than Irvin! 65 fricken games that is like 4 years of games. So now if we do the math and say monk played in 159 games that comes out to 48 TD's and 9030 yards. That is significantly worse than Irvins 11904 and 65 TD's. On top of all that Irvin had to be accounted for and he consistantly beat the beast DB's of all time Sanders and Green. Monk....well he caught a lot of short passes. Once again possesion receivers do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Comparing Monk to Irvin is like comparing Marcus Allen to Emmitt Smith

Yeah, both were great, but it isnt even worthy of discussion.

 

[dougonthebench]

I say both.I always had that burning in the pitt of my stomach,every time we played the skins cause Monk could get ya at any time.

 

[Dallas4ever]

Both deserve it but Irvin is a much better player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is out of their mind. There isn't a football coach anywhere who would take Monk over Irvin if both were available and in the prime of their lives.

Enough said.

 

[jem88]

Monk may not have gotten the huge stats, but he didn't have some of the advantages that Irvin had. Irvin never had a homerun hitter on the opposite end of the field like Monk did in Clark. That's like playing opposite of Santana Moss.

Monk also didn't have a guy of Troy Aikman's caliber throwing him the ball every year. He had a bunch of role players that got the job done. Theisman was probably the best and then there was Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien. None of them world beaters.

You also have to factor in two strike shortened seasons and that Ricky Sanders came in and along with Monk and Clark also got over 1000 yards recieving.

I don't think Irvin ever had a reciever on the same field that got over 1000 yards did he? Let alone 2 other guys.


Now don't take any of this as me bashing Irvin, because I agree he was one of the best and belongs in the Hall, I'm just saying that Monk performed pretty well considering the circumstances.

I'll probably get attacked for this but I always found Gary Clark to be scarier than Monk. I'm not knocking Monk; I just think history has tremendously underrated Gary Clark- he deserves better than to be remembered as the foil to Art Monk.

 

[apickmans]

I'll probably get attacked for this but I always found Gary Clark to be scarier than Monk. I'm not knocking Monk; I just think history has tremendously underrated Gary Clark- he deserves better than to be remembered as the foil to Art Monk.

You wont get attacked, at least not by me. Clark was what sanatana moss is for us now....the deep ball threat. Clark was small but very fast and always came up big in our huge games..playoffs, super bowls etc.

 

[riggo]

Ok first get the facts right Monk played in 224 Games Irvin in 159. Monk played in 65 more games than irvin yet he only has 3 touchdowns more and 800 yards more than Irvin! 65 fricken games that is like 4 years of games. So now if we do the math and say monk played in 159 games that comes out to 48 TD's and 9030 yards. That is significantly worse than Irvins 11904 and 65 TD's. On top of all that Irvin had to be accounted for and he consistantly beat the beast DB's of all time Sanders and Green. Monk....well he caught a lot of short passes. Once again possesion receivers do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

marvin harrison is one hell of a 'possession receiver'. he 'only' averages 13.3 YPC ....over 10 seasons and still in his prime. monks 16 year career average is 13.5.

and, i think your numbers are a little off as far as monk vs irvin. irvin had to retire 4 games into his 12th season- his numbers were declining. so did monks near the end of his career, so i think its fair to compare both through their first 12 seasons rather than taking monks 16 year career totals and using them to make comparisons. i did that below.

Receivers are paid to emass yards and score TD's. I'm not saying Monk shouldn't be in the HOF because he's a Skin. He's a Syracuse alum and that will always endear me to him. But when I look at his yards and TD's on a season-to-season basis, I don't believe he should be in.

i'll break it down further.

over 12 seasons-

monk- 63.49 yards per game
irvin- 74.86 ypg

largent averaged about 65. swann and stallworth both averaged right around 50.

and swann, who you have argued for deserving of his spot in the hall, isnt even top 50 all time in yards, receptions, or receiving TD's.

another stat-

monk- .35 TD's per game
irvin- .41 TD's per game

is that a big difference to you? harrison averages .71, and rice averages .65. that would be a big difference to me, but .06 of a percentage doesnt seem like much.

my only point in bringing up these comparisons is that monk and irvin are alot closer statistically than some are making it seem. and again, who here would take monks qb's over aikman? ok.

again- both should be in. monk has the records, irvin doesnt. but, both were great.

 

[riggo]

I'll probably get attacked for this but I always found Gary Clark to be scarier than Monk. I'm not knocking Monk; I just think history has tremendously underrated Gary Clark- he deserves better than to be remembered as the foil to Art Monk.

i just met clark last week at his restaurant near DC. got a pic with him. nice guy, too. very small.....

 

[AmishCowboy]

Yeah, when we played them, I always feared Clark over Monk, that's taking nothing away from Monk.

 

[J-DOG]

Ok first get the facts right Monk played in 224 Games Irvin in 159. Monk played in 65 more games than irvin yet he only has 3 touchdowns more and 800 yards more than Irvin! 65 fricken games that is like 4 years of games. So now if we do the math and say monk played in 159 games that comes out to 48 TD's and 9030 yards. That is significantly worse than Irvins 11904 and 65 TD's. On top of all that Irvin had to be accounted for and he consistantly beat the beast DB's of all time Sanders and Green. Monk....well he caught a lot of short passes. Once again possesion receivers do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

You've touched on something that rings true to me.
As a person who is old enough to have watched the entire career of Monk...you have nailed that fact that he did catch a TON of short passes. He led the league in receptions but watching him play they were more like extended runs. Monk was a great wr and a great teammate but having watched both Monk and Irvin thru thier entire careers...It's not even a contest. Irvin was THE MAN at the wr position for us and that meant he got the full attention of the defense every game. You cannot say that about Monk and there in is the difference.
However I have a pessimistic view of the voting committee for the NFL Hall of Fame. Getting Aikman and Rayfield Wright in the Hall DOES NOT change the fact that there is a bias against the Cowboys.
And Irvin is the poster child showing the bias.
There is so much political BS behind who gets in that you can't trust the committee to vote Irvin in.
We are talkin about the triplets here...I never thought I would have to make a case for Irvin in the NFL Hall of Fame. Those 3 guys were the faces for our dynasty in the 90's.
Screw the Hall of Fame!!!!!!!!!

 

[Yakuza Rich]

marvin harrison is one hell of a 'possession receiver'. he 'only' averages 13.3 YPC ....over 10 seasons and still in his prime. monks 16 year career average is 13.5

Again, the game changes over time.

Back in Monk's day, the average yards per catch for a WR was usually around 16 yards per catch and the high end guys could get upwards to 24 yards per catch (i.e. Lofton and Wesley Walker).

In Harrison's time, the passing routes and defenses were focused on passing the ball more with more controlled passes. Thus, Harrison's yards per catch for a WR is about the average and the high end guys might be at 15 yards per catch.

Now the game has changed a tad now because of the reinforcement of the illegal chuck and pass interference rules which allows for an easier time for speed guys, so the ypc goes up again.

Compare Monk to his peers of his era and you'll see guys like Roy Green have far higher ypc than Monk did.


Rich

 

[wxcpo]

Wow, Irvin is nowhere close to Jerry Rice and Keyshawn is no where close to Monk. To prove your point, you could say something to the effect that the difference between Monk and Irvin is the same as between Hines Ward and Keyshawn.

Not many WRs are on par with Jerry Rice, but I would certainly put Irvin in his class. Stat wise of course he's not anywhere close to Rice, no one ever will be. It about more than stats though, it's about how a player can dominate a game and cause defensive coordinators to game to try and stop him. Irvin did exactly that, he could take over a game and defensive coordinators had to know at all times where Irvin was and had to try and stop him.

Monk on the other hand was not a headache for defensive coodinators and like I already said, he wasn't even the best WR on his team. He was a possession reciever much the same as Keyshaun is. Good players, but nor HoF worthy. Monk's stats are padded because of his 16 years in the league plain and simple.

If starting a team and you were selecting a WR only a Commander homer would choose Monk over Irvin when both players were in their primes.