Mr. 3000 (DJ3K)

[Alumni2k11]

 

[TheCowboy]

He's very overrated :shades:

 

[CowboyDan]

Congrats DJ! I'm so glad he hit a homer for it!

 

[Hoofbite]

That's awesome.

Some lucky guy snatched the special ball they put in play just in case he hit a homer.

 

[BigWillie]

He's very overrated :shades:

To an extent, he is. Too many fans actually believe he is the greatest SS of all time, which is crazy.

 

[BIGDen]

To an extent, he is. Too many fans actually believe he is the greatest SS of all time, which is crazy.

Well, there will always be fans who overrate someone, but most don't believe that he is the greatest EVER. He is considered a great player who will be a Hall of Famer. Those things are undeniable. He has been exceptional ever since he came into the league. He has also been a class act. I've been a Yankees fan for almost 40 years and he's exemplified everything you want to see in a ballplayer. My cousin got to hang out with him at a bar in the city a couple of years ago and said Jeter was just a cool guy. He was very nice and didn't come off as arrogant at all. As a fan of the Yankees and Cowboys, I am appreciating the opportunity to watch Jeter, Ware, and Witten. I believe all three will be considered all-time greats at their positions and happen to be great people as well.

Congrats Derek on achieving a huge milestone in professional baseball!

 

[big dog cowboy]

Not a big baseball fan, but that seems like a lot of hits.

 

[casmith07]

5 for 5 on the day with a home run for #3000

Congrats to Derek Jeter...one of my favorite baseball players.

 

[Stautner]

He's very overrated :shades:

To an extent, he is. Too many fans actually believe he is the greatest SS of all time, which is crazy.

I don't call him the greatest shortstop of all-time, but it's far from crazy for someone to believe he is. He is certainly a legimate player in the discussion.

Consider this - no other SS has reached 3,000 hits playing completely as a shortstop. Wagner played almost as many games at positions other than shortstop throughout his career, and Ripken was playing 3B and Yount playing OF for awhile before they reached 3,000.

Jeter isn't the defensive whiz that Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel are/were (who is?), or have the power of Ripken, but as an overall player in all phases, and as one of the smartest, most instinctive players the game has seen, he is easily worthy of consideration among the best shortstops ever.

I am not, and never have been and never will be, a Yankee fan, but I have always been a Jeter fan.

That play down the 1st base line in that World Series games was one of the most phenominal things I've ever seen - not from the standpoint of the physical skill it took, but because I can't imagine any other shortstop ever would have even been in position to make that play. The combinatiion of awareness and hustle was incredible. I still think the runner should have been called safe, but for Jeter to be there to even make it close enough for the umpire to think the runner was out was amazing.

 

[BigWillie]

I don't call him the greatest shortstop of all-time, but it's far from crazy for someone to believe he is. He is certainly a legimate player in the discussion.

Consider this - no other SS has reached 3,000 hits playing completely as a shortstop. Wagner played almost as many games at positions other than shortstop throughout his career, and Ripken was playing 3B and Yount playing OF for awhile before they reached 3,000.

Jeter isn't the defensive whiz that Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel are/were (who is?), or have the power of Ripken, but as an overall player in all phases, and as one of the smartest, most instinctive players the game has seen, he is easily worthy of consideration among the best shortstops ever.

Ripken only played 667 games of his long career at 3B. There is only about a 40 game difference in games played at SS between Jeter and Ripken.

Not true about Honus. He played nearly 1900 of his 2777 games at SS.

True about Yount. He played nearly as many in the OF as he did at SS.

But the thing with Jeter, he's a great hitter for average and has gotten COMPLETELY overrated with his glove throughout his career. The accolades he has gotten with the glove is what separates him from other SS' in history. The GG's he has gotten are about as real as a man on Pluto. Statistically, year after year Jeter ranks among the worst SS in MLB, but somehow gets credit as being one of the best. His defensive career was basically made up of him making so many routine plays look difficult.

I'll give him credit for being a great hitter for average. I'll give him credit for being looked to as the leader in that Yankee clubhouse for so many years. But those two qualities doesn't equal him passing shortstops like Ripken, Wagner, Vaughan, etc.,

Top 10 at his position? Yes. Best ever? No.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

So many morons try to be trendy calling him "overrated" that he actually might be the most underrated player in baseball history.

The bottom line is that he's statistically the best SS of the modern era and probably all time and second place in the modern era isn't even close. Comparing his 10 best seasons with the 10 best of any other SS shows the he can be compared to anyone, but comparing his 15 best vs... shows that no one has played SS at his level for the same duration.

And that's just the regular season...he also holds almost every post-season SS record and even most of the WS records for those who want to argue expanded post-season.

The only real argument is whether he can/wants to play 7-8 more years to challenge Rose's hits record

 

[Aikmaniac]

The only real argument is whether he can/wants to play 7-8 more years to challenge Rose's hits record

Obviously, you're a more knowledgeable baseball fan than I am.

Think he can hold up for that long to challenge it?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't agree with those who say he could not field his position as well. I would agree that he does not have the range he did when he was younger but I would not say that he could not field his position. I believe there were better SS with more range but Jeter is among the best lifetime fielding percentage for all SS. For my money, I would take Ripken over Jeter but that does not mean that Jeter was/is not a great shortstop. I'd say probably top 5. I would take Wagner over any of them but that's another story and again, does not mean that Jeter is not great.

As a side note, ARod has still played more games in his career at SS then 3B. If I were going to talk about the Greatest Shortstops in the history of the game, my top 5 would include ARod for sure. In fact, it would probably look something like this.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter
5. Luke Appling

JMO

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I don't agree with those who say he could not field his position as well. I would agree that he does not have the range he did when he was younger but I would not say that he could not field his position. I believe there were better SS with more range but Jeter is among the best lifetime fielding percentage for all SS. For my money, I would take Ripken over Jeter but that does not mean that Jeter was/is not a great shortstop. I'd say probably top 5. I would take Wagner over any of them but that's another story and again, does not mean that Jeter is not great.

As a side note, ARod has still played more games in his career at SS then 3B. If I were going to talk about the Greatest Shortstops in the history of the game, my top 5 would include ARod for sure. In fact, it would probably look something like this.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter
5. Luke Appling

JMO

If Rodriguez stayed at SS he's the GOAT without a doubt but you also have to preface that with a mention of PED usage.

Ripken's an interesting case...take away his games record and his career really isn't nearly as impressive. For a player who always hit in the power spots in the lineup, only four 100 RBI seasons is less than stellar and two less than Miquel Tejada.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Derek Jeter is only overrated by a few people. Those that think he is the SS ever have him overrated.

Derek Jeter is a great player. Of course, he doesn't deserve the All-Star game, but that is the hoard of Yankee fans putting him in there.

The guy has 5x gold gloves, 4x silver sluggers, 3,000+ hits (only 23 players in history have at least this many), a career BA over 300, and 5x World Championships. It's pretty damn hard to overrate him. (though some do! hah)

 

[BigWillie]

I don't agree with those who say he could not field his position as well. I would agree that he does not have the range he did when he was younger but I would not say that he could not field his position. I believe there were better SS with more range but Jeter is among the best lifetime fielding percentage for all SS.

That is where you get it a bit twisted about Jeter. Did he field balls he could get to? Yes. But his range severely limited himself on balls that most MLB shortstops would get to routinely.

It's sorta like a QB who will only throw a check down or dump pass. Completion percentage will of course be high, but only because he doesn't have the arm or willingness to stretch the field.

In his career, he has only had 3 years without a negative TZ (Total Zone) rating. TZ measures how many runs above or below average a player will save a year based on the amount of plays made.

To give you an example of how flawed FP% is these days, Jeter had a .989 FP, but a -9 TZ rating. Of the 118 shortstops who were measured by this stat Jeter was 116th.

Another sabermetric stat is DRS, which again ranked 115th out of 118 SS'. Only 1 year has he had a positive rating in this category.

UZR rated his as the 6th worst starting SS in MLB last year. Only 2 years since UZR has been kept has Jeter had a positive UZR rating.

Fangraphs actually had an article that detailed how flawed Jeter's defense has been for years ..

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-great-derek-jeter-conspiracy/

Bill James, after he and his friends analyzed nearly everything in each game during a year, called Jeter out on his 'defense' ..

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/item_I9Io5f71ufPc6UaiysVgWK

"They watched film of every major-league game, and had recorded every ball off the bat by the direction in which it was hit [the vector], the type of hit [groundball, flyball, line-drive, popup, etc.] and by how hard the ball was hit [softly hit, medium, hard hit]," according to James.

In an earlier article that appears on James' Fielding Bible Web site, BIS ripped Jeter.

"They had analyzed the outcomes to determine who was best at turning hit balls into outs," James wrote. "One of their conclusions was that Jeter was probably the least effective defensive player in the major leagues, at any position."

Really, it isn't a matter of just cherry picking sabermetric categories either when it comes to Jeter. Nearly every single category you can find over his career has shown Jeter to be a downright horrid defender.

To put it bluntly, Jeter has made routine plays look difficult (the backhand jumping throw across his body) that other SS' would have routinely picked. He is definitely sure handed, but when your range is as limited as Jeter's has proven to be over his career, it shouldn't be that hard.

And IMO, Jeter's horrid defense is what holds me back from even putting him in the discussion as the best ever at his position.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I know the TZ argument and I understand those who use this as a means by which to measure his fielding ability. Perhaps there is some truth to it but still, you can not discount the accomplishments of this player. If it were only fans or people on message boards who rank him among the very best to every play SS, then I might give more credence to that argument but it's not. Most Baseball people also believe he is among the top 5 to play the position as well. At some point, you have to say that he has done enough to be considered.

 

[casmith07]

I don't agree with those who say he could not field his position as well. I would agree that he does not have the range he did when he was younger but I would not say that he could not field his position. I believe there were better SS with more range but Jeter is among the best lifetime fielding percentage for all SS. For my money, I would take Ripken over Jeter but that does not mean that Jeter was/is not a great shortstop. I'd say probably top 5. I would take Wagner over any of them but that's another story and again, does not mean that Jeter is not great.

As a side note, ARod has still played more games in his career at SS then 3B. If I were going to talk about the Greatest Shortstops in the history of the game, my top 5 would include ARod for sure. In fact, it would probably look something like this.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter
5. Luke Appling

JMO

No mention of Ozzie Smith? For shame, ABQ!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No mention of Ozzie Smith? For shame, ABQ!

He was a great fielder but he was only a lifetime .262 hitter, 25 HRs, 2460 hits, 580 RBIs. Only averaged 50 RBIs a year and 2 HRs. If the question were greatest fielding SS, then he would certainly be a guy you might discuss but I don't see him as one of the greatest SS only because there were guys with similar fielding percentage numbers but much better offensive numbers.

Wagner .947 FP, .328 BA, 101 HRs, 1733 RBIs, 3420 hits, and this in the dead ball era and before playing fields were leveled.

Rodriquez .973 FP, .302 BA, 626 HRs, 1883 RBIs, 2762 hits and he's not finished yet. He could be a 3k hit guy and break the HR record.

Ripken .977 FP, .276 BA, 431 HRs, 1695 RBIs, 3184 Hits and he broke Lou Gehrigs Consecutive Game record.

Jeter .977 FP, .313 BA, 237 HRs, 1159 RBIs, 3004 Hits and he too is still playing.

Appling .948 FP, .310 BA, 45 HRs, 1116 RBIs, 2749 Hits. If you were going to pick a player and consider Ozzie, this would probably be the player but even still, he's a 900+ fielding SS lifetime and his offensive numbers were far superior.

I just think that if you look at both sides of the game, all of these guys had better careers because of their offensive abilities. JMO

 

[BigWillie]

I know the TZ argument and I understand those who use this as a means by which to measure his fielding ability. Perhaps there is some truth to it but still, you can not discount the accomplishments of this player. If it were only fans or people on message boards who rank him among the very best to every play SS, then I might give more credence to that argument but it's not. Most Baseball people also believe he is among the top 5 to play the position as well. At some point, you have to say that he has done enough to be considered.

Oh, like I said, I will never take away from the hitter Jeter is. Watching his willingness to slap a pitch into RF is freakin' beautiful. It's even more beautiful in a day and age where most young hitters want to do nothing but pull the ball.

Do not get it twisted, Jeter IS one of the best SS to ever play the game. I would argue top 10 to ever play his position. I just find it insulting to call him the best ever at his position, which is what I would argue with anyone on the subject of.

But I do find it ironic that you do not mention Ozzie among the best SS of all time, but mention Jeter. In all reality, Jeter is like the exact opposite of Ozzie.

Ozzie - Great fielder, not a good hitter

Jeter - Great hitter, not a good fielder

Not directed at you ABQ - but I'm always surprised how many people overlook Arky Vaughan, or never even mention him among the best SS of all time. One of the top 3-4 hitters ever at shortstop, and became a very good fielder by the time his career was over.

Poor Arky was overlooked while he played, for the fact he played on some horrid Pirates teams, and for the fact he retired too early. But the guy had career numbers of .318/.406/.453, and had one of the best seasons ever by a SS back in '35 when he hit .385/.491/.607, a year in which he was robbed of the MVP. Career MLB leader in OBP by a shortstop as well.

Even more crazy is it took nearly 40 years for Arky to get put in the HOF, and it took the Veterans Committee to do it, which was a complete joke.

I've only seen a select few writers, like a Bill James, ever give Arky the credit he deserves as one of the best SS' to ever play.