My prediction: Barring injuries we will have a serviceable OL.

[DFWJC]

Neither the Ravens or 49ers were weak along both sides of the line of scrimmage. The opposite is true, in fact.

Swing and a miss.

The Ravens Oline really came together...especially when the played three tackles. It was a strength.

As for the 49ers, well, that is a great line by any current standards.

 

[CoCo]

The Ravens D-line was either "winning games in the trenches" or "getting gashed by everyone."

You just need to know if the discussion is pointing out how bad our D-line is, or how meaningless that 200+ yard running game (and Costa) was.

 

[Zordon]

OK, I understand that but it still doesn't make it three years.

As of right now it hasn't even been two years since the full purge.

Hey, I understand the desire to get the offensive line up to snuff as the next guy but still less than two years is less than two years. 4 out of the 5 positions needed to be gutted and the 5th has regressed in that period of time.

Lets see how they do this season. I'm expecting better than the last two seasons.

you're making a big deal about the years. fact is after the 2010 debacle everyone knew there would be monumental changes on the team, particularly the oline. so since then they've had 3 offseasons to correct it. that is plenty of time to revamp a line if you make it a priority.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

you're making a big deal about the years. fact is after the 2010 debacle everyone knew there would be monumental changes on the team, particularly the oline. so since then they've had 3 offseasons to correct it. that is plenty of time to revamp a line if you make it a priority.

"Monumental changes" is hyperbole.

Gurode was penciled in as the starter for 2011, but had unexpected knee surgery in June of 2011-- way past the start of "Offseason". He came back and was horrible in the preseason. That caused his ouster right before the start of the 2011 season.

Now if you wanted to say that the problems facing the offensive line in 2011 and 2012 were due to the poor drafting of 2006 through 2009, then I'm right there with you.

But I don't think anyone would have thought the tread would have come off the tires of Gurode, Davis and Columbo all at the same time, but that's exactly what happened... And that was two years ago and not three.

 

[Risen Star]

Very, very valid point.

The Niners were much better than the Ravens along each of the lines.

And yep, it was the overall passing efficiency of Flacco (which kills me to admit it) and the rest of the Raven's passing game that was the difference. Certainly wasn't the defense nor was it the running game.

That isn't a valid point. Both teams got to where they were by winning at the line of scrimmage. That was their identity. It's why they played for a championship. Only one team can win it all. Neither team could have gotten there with the players the Cowboys field at those positions. They just aren't good enough.

People say what about when the Packers won? They had a struggling OL. Yeah but they had a dominant front seven that year. The Cowboys don't.

Well what about the Saints? Their front seven wasn't special when they won. Yeah, but they had a dominant OL. The Cowboys don't.

You can not be a debacle on the OL and mediocre on the DL and win anything in this league. Can't happen. Even if my right hand sports blue and silver foam.

 

[burmafrd]

That isn't a valid point. Both teams got to where they were by winning at the line of scrimmage. That was their identity. It's why they played for a championship. Only one team can win it all. Neither team could have gotten there with the players the Cowboys field at those positions. They just aren't good enough.

People say what about when the Packers won? They had a struggling OL. Yeah but they had a dominant front seven that year. The Cowboys don't.

Well what about the Saints? Their front seven wasn't special when they won. Yeah, but they had a dominant OL. The Cowboys don't.

You can not be a debacle on the OL and mediocre on the DL and win anything in this league. Can't happen. Even if my right hand sports blue and silver foam.

winni and the others have only two replies to this:
"It does not matter"
or
"Its a process that will take years(without ever saying how many)"

 

[KJJ]

i agree serviceable is the best it's going to be.

my question is do you guys think this is acceptable. we are nearing 3 years since the 2010 purge. we have two first rd picks on the line. team's are rebuilding their lines in this time span...skins seemingly overnight. talent is shoddy on our line but i think a little more pressure needs to be put on the coaches to fix this quickly.

Serviceable will never be acceptable when you have 2 first round picks one being a top 10 pick upfront. So far the jury is still out on Tyron who I haven't been overly impressed with so far. He showed a lot of promise his rookie year at RT but struggled last season making the transition to LT. He committed a number of penalties and got beat quite a few times. For the most part he's looked fairly solid but still has a long way to go to live up to his draft status. When you use a top 10 pick on a player a lot is expected and I'm expecting Smith to get better. As for Fredrick I don't know what to expect from him with most having a 2nd and 3rd round grade on him.

He's going to have to perform up to the grade the Cowboys had him at not the grade most of the other teams in the league had him at for him to help solidify the OL. What makes me nervous about him other than where most teams had him rated is he doesn't appear to be real good at one position. The Cowboys say he could play anywhere along the line which means he may get moved around until they find a position for him. Reaching for Fredrick like most felt the Cowboys did has put a lot of pressure on Jerry and the organization. With 2 first round picks on the OL since 2011 the OL has got to start showing some vast improvement.

 

[Risen Star]

winni and the others have only two replies to this:
"It does not matter"
or
"Its a process that will take years(without ever saying how many)"

I guess I just don't see the issue with admitting what this team is. They've certainly proven it over the years.

Doesn't mean they don't have a shot this year, it's just a long shot.

 

[Zordon]

"Monumental changes" is hyperbole.

Gurode was penciled in as the starter for 2011, but had unexpected knee surgery in June of 2011-- way past the start of "Offseason". He came back and was horrible in the preseason. That caused his ouster right before the start of the 2011 season.

Now if you wanted to say that the problems facing the offensive line in 2011 and 2012 were due to the poor drafting of 2006 through 2009, then I'm right there with you.

But I don't think anyone would have thought the tread would have come off the tires of Gurode, Davis and Columbo all at the same time, but that's exactly what happened... And that was two years ago and not three.

Gurode was about money as well. The lockout pushed those negotiations so regardless of surgery he was never a guarantee to come back with his recent performance unless he reworked his deal.

bad drafting is obviously the reason for the current state of the line...but they drafted tyron in 2010. that's 3 offseasons they've worked on this unit. it's time to see results. do you think it's too soon?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

it's time to see results. do you think it's too soon?

Let's see what the results are during the 2013 season.

 

[Risen Star]

The Ravens Oline really came together...especially when the played three tackles. It was a strength.

As for the 49ers, well, that is a great line by any current standards.

They really did. That line played it's best football in the playoffs.

The Ravens have contended for a title for years based off the strength of their line play. They certainly don't have a better QB than the Cowboys. They don't have better receivers. Or better cornerbacks. I don't think they have a better coach either.

 

[KJJ]

I guess I just don't see the issue with admitting what this team is.

This is a FAN board and most FANS don't want to hear what the team really is because it's not positive. Those who don't want to hear the truth please don't read any further and scroll on because the Cowboys are a mediocre football team and have been for the past 3 years. Hopefully that will change this upcoming season but as we sit here in June the Cowboys are what they are a mediocre football team until they prove otherwise on the field.

 

[Zordon]

Let's see what the results are during the 2013 season.

yeah that's my point. i dont think replacement of 4 linemen in 2011 should be an excuse anymore.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

yeah that's my point. i dont think replacement of 4 linemen in 2011 should be an excuse anymore.

There's some merit in what you say about it being an excuse or a reason or what not.

If there's big-time failure there this season then someone should be held responsible.

But I'm thinking there is going to be improvement. Maybe not a top-10 line but much closer to average (16th) than what they have been in the last 2 seasons.

 

[KJJ]

The way the NFL is now you really don't know until opening day where your team is. Teams are so fearful of injuries their starters get very few snaps in preseason we're seeing mostly backups and bubble players. As injury prone as Murray has been the Cowboys may be fearful to give him a single snap in preseason in fear he could limp off with something that could keep him out until week 3 of the regular season.

 

[Idgit]

That isn't a valid point. Both teams got to where they were by winning at the line of scrimmage. That was their identity. It's why they played for a championship. Only one team can win it all. Neither team could have gotten there with the players the Cowboys field at those positions. They just aren't good enough.

People say what about when the Packers won? They had a struggling OL. Yeah but they had a dominant front seven that year. The Cowboys don't.

Well what about the Saints? Their front seven wasn't special when they won. Yeah, but they had a dominant OL. The Cowboys don't.

You can not be a debacle on the OL and mediocre on the DL and win anything in this league. Can't happen. Even if my right hand sports blue and silver foam.

It is a valid point. The Ravens 'identity' isn't quantifiable, but they didn't win anything because of their trench play. They won it all because of great QB play and not turning over the ball. And they did it by stomping the NFC team that was winning games because of great trench play on both sides of the ball. Just because you don't want to admit it, doesn't mean it's not so.

And we've got neither a debacle on OL nor are we mediocre on the DL. You're evaluations are off, and this causes you to be less than enthusiastic about the team's chances when it comes to our personnel. That's fine that you feel that way, but it doesn't mean your evaluation's right. When it becomes obvious that the team doesn't agree with your assessment either, your argument shifts to 'the team doesn't know what it's doing because it's not run by competent management' where 'competent management' means people doing what you would do if you were in their place.

Just keep in mind that there are those of us who have been saying all along that the OL issues last season were at C (and RT, but nobody's perfect) and that the problems on defense were related to takeaways and not necessarily the trenches. When the team then goes out and addresses exactly those things, while not spending high picks or FA dollars on OGs, it's getting harder and harder not so say 'we told you so.' Granted, in your mind this is more support for the argument that the football professionals don't know what they're doing (an argument that now needs to be extended to cover Bill Callahan, Monte Kiffin, and Rod Marinelli, mind you). That's fine. One of us is probably right, and the other is probably wrong. But you'll have to forgive us when we keep pointing that fact out in these OL/DL threads.

 

[CoCo]

This is a FAN board and most FANS don't want to hear what the team really is because it's not positive. Those who don't want to hear the truth please don't read any further and scroll on because the Cowboys are a mediocre football team and have been for the past 3 years. Hopefully that will change this upcoming season but as we sit here in June the Cowboys are what they are a mediocre football team until they prove otherwise on the field.

8-8 is not what any of us aspire to. I have no problem stating that.

What I don't want to hear is the arrogant definitiveness of people who claim to know the only formula for NFL success, pass judgement on the future as a result before it even transpires, and never consider the fact that perhaps their opinion could possibly be amiss.

Yes, the NFL is that predictable and definitive. /sarcasm

Its the arrogance. Its always been the arrogance and the complete disrespect of opinions that differ.

 

[Verdict]

One of the things that has gotten in the way of a swift rebuilding of the Cowboys roster is we have been mediocre and drafted later than teams which have sucked badly. If we had lost a couple of more games this past year then we could have drafted Cooper, Warmack or Richardson. I'm not advocating losing at this minute.....I'm just sayin....

 

[Eskimo]

Serviceable will never be acceptable when you have 2 first round picks one being a top 10 pick upfront. So far the jury is still out on Tyron who I haven't been overly impressed with so far. He showed a lot of promise his rookie year at RT but struggled last season making the transition to LT. He committed a number of penalties and got beat quite a few times. For the most part he's looked fairly solid but still has a long way to go to live up to his draft status. When you use a top 10 pick on a player a lot is expected and I'm expecting Smith to get better. As for Fredrick I don't know what to expect from him with most having a 2nd and 3rd round grade on him.

He's going to have to perform up to the grade the Cowboys had him at not the grade most of the other teams in the league had him at for him to help solidify the OL. What makes me nervous about him other than where most teams had him rated is he doesn't appear to be real good at one position. The Cowboys say he could play anywhere along the line which means he may get moved around until they find a position for him. Reaching for Fredrick like most felt the Cowboys did has put a lot of pressure on Jerry and the organization. With 2 first round picks on the OL since 2011 the OL has got to start showing some vast improvement.

But again, since 2011 is the key and one of those first rounders was spent just this offseason so he hasn't even seen the field yet.

The truth is Frederick went right where he was expected to go before the Combine. Some people downgraded him after the Combine and some teams didn't. If you look at his workout he did poorly on only one drill, the 40-yard dash. I would argue he compared favorably to Chance Warmack on most of the other measurements sans bench press which may have been low due to his training technique. Functionally his strength is obvious on the field and the same was true of Fluker who went #11 overall and will probably have to be moved to OG in the end. So why is Frederick so much worse when he is as good of an athlete and ten times smarter and has the flexibility of playing Center which neither Fluker nor Warmack have? Could it be largely media bias? Could it be FOs that over-value the 40-yard dash for OL? Could it be some form of groupthink where a few people over-react to his time and then the ball gets rolling downhill?

The other truth is that if you look at all the interior OL drafted over the past few years they don't grade out well in their rookie years when they start. It takes time to get used to the higher level of competition.

The last truth is that 1/3rd of the time bottom of the first round picks never end up starting at all.

So again, part of the issue here is unrealistic expectations.

As for Tyron, he had some penalty issues at the start of the year which may have been largely due to Cook's snapping more than anything else. Then you have Tyron adjusting to playing on the left for the first time in a long time. Then there is the age factor. Everyone has to remember that he is still only 22 years old and hasn't played as much football as most guys going into their 3rd year of Pro football. There are rookies drafted this year who are still older than him. His body hasn't reached full physical maturity yet and he's still getting bigger and stronger. Not only did he switch from RT to LT but he also switched OL coaches who had very different emphases. Houck is a classic man blocking teacher and Callahan teaches a variant of zone blocking. Finally there is off the field issues with his family demanding and trying to extort money from him and allegedly stealing money from him through the financial advisor that they hand-picked. They were threatening bodily harm to his partner if he didn't comply with their requests for money. While other guys were prepping for the draft they had him out there in a van cleaning houses in his spare time. How many other kids expected to be top 10 picks are doing that to help out in the family business?

Now after all that change and turmoil, Tyron played pretty well in the second half of the year. I think he only gave up 3 sacks all year. He wasn't getting regular help out there as Free needed more help on the other corner. I think he is going to impress people this year with his family issues behind him (restraining orders), he has bulked up a bit, he is in his 2nd year at LT and the footwork will be much more natural for him this year and he is in his 2nd year with Callahan so the blocking techniques will be much more familiar to him. Even though Callahan is now the OC the offensive system hasn't changed overall but the emphasis will now be on zone blocking and this should play more to his strength - his ability to make blocks on the move.

Now I think the whole OL is going to be better and it isn't all going to be at the feet of TFred. I think there is more competition at OG from some of the young guys we have been developing. I also expect it to be a tight race at RT between the physically dominant Parnell and a rejuvenated Doug Free who seemed to sort out his technique issues late last year after having to split snaps with Parnell.

As for the stopgap OGs I don't know what happens there. Livings is concerning me with his knee issues. We'll have to chalk it up to bad luck since he had no such issues in Cincy. Bern had shoulder surgery but I think it was a relatively minor procedure and he should be far healthier for the start of this year than he was last year. We all have to remember that he didn't have a lot of starting experience in the league and came from a Division III school, Bentley. He hadn't started many games in the NFL in Jacksonville, he missed all of minicamp, TC and the first few PS games recovering from two offseason leg surgeries. He didn't have his power base with him when he came back and he didn't have much practice time with his teammates. He also looked much better in the second half of the year.

I'm still not sure how it'll all shake out. I kind of still expect Costa, Kowalski and Leary to make bids for starting positions. Center is the second most important position on the OL and this year I think Costa is a better player than TFred. Next year TFred may very well be ready to beat him out but it takes some time to adjust to NFL quickness and strength.

I do think this OL will go probably from a mid-20s OL to somewhere in the 10-20 range but exactly where is hard to say.

I actually think next year is when everything really finally breaksthrough with Tyron in his 4th year, TFred in his second year, Costa in his 5th, Kowalski 4th year, Leary 3rd year and Parnell 5th year. That group will be ready then to carry us forward with ongoing additions from the draft and UDFA to be integrated with the current group. It was truly devastating to this franchise and organization to have all those vets crash at the same time while all the existing developmental OL failed except Free who then went on to fail later. As they were all failing we also had large scale failures elsewhere on the roster (LB, S) that had to be addressed but without cap space from the dead money that all those failing vets created.

But look at us now with a bunch of young guys who are coming into their own and it is easy to project that we will get a serviceable OL this year and probably above average play from our OL going forward.

 

[jobberone]

I tend to think it'll be Free over Parnell simply because Free seemed to come on late last season and has been placed on full alert to his job being in jeopardy. That and I'm using up all my "this young guy will develop" hope on Leary and Frederick

Otherwise, I'm with you on your projected lineup. Livings injury struggles along with seemingly positive reports on Leary leads to that likely change. Bernadeau would seem to be RG by default if they're intent on keeping Costa at b/u Center and hesitant to have 3 new starters on the interior.

I think there is some upside hope with Bernadeau with stronger Center play, a year's experience with Callahan, and a somewhat healthier offseason.

That leaves Costa, Cook & Kowalski as the primary interior backups. I'm not holding my breath on Arkin (though certainly hoping) and I get the feeling Livings roster spot might be in jeopardy if this knee remains troublesome.

I think there is considerable hope in this unit for 2013 while remaining short on guarantees.

Said it better than I ever could. I'm not writing Bernie or Livings off but I think there will be reluctance to put three or four new starters out there in the beginning. Of course there are always likely to be injuries so who knows who they roll out there.

You may well be right about Free. Without getting into it more and fanning the flames for some, I like the potential of Parnell more and I just want to see him win the job. But he's inconsistent enough for Free to maybe win that job.

I don't know how much Bernie's and Livings' injuries contributed to their inconsistency last year either. I saw a good bit more of Bernie and he might develop into a very good guard. Having better play at center could affect the play of both guards positively. Cook is very versatile and will get a hard look as a backup because of that ability on game day to fill in anywhere.

I'm just playing into the Leary news coming out of camp. I haven't seen him play so I can't possibly have an informed opinion of him from my non-expert eyes. I'm just a hopin' as the song goes. But I have said since last year someone will come out of the pack to surprise along the interior. maybe that's only Fred but I think another will show us something even including our 'starter' there.

What I am pretty excited about is the level of competition this year everywhere but esp along the OL. It's been a long time since I felt this good about that although I'll temper that with the thought that we ain't seen nothin' yet that's real enough.

There's true competition along several fronts so it'll make for an interesting camp.

Enjoyed the conversation. Wish you would post more often.