New Charles Haley not needed

[tyke1doe]

Because a stable of capable DL can be just as effective. The defense does not need to rely on just one guy.

Most of the top pressure teams don't have a top 10 sack guy.

Well, we didn't rely on Haley alone either. But we do need that one guy who is going to draw more attention, whether through double teams or scheming. And that frees up other linemen.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I didn't think this was an argument about one guy doing it alone.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Never said they werent untouchable. But to say we can win the SB with low sacks because the Patriots did is ridiculous. Our teams are totally different. Scheme, coaching, Tom Brady, defensive discipline, ect....ect..... we simply dont have.

We have some things they don't have. Dominant Oline. Zeke. And our scheme and coaching aren't the hindrance you seem to think. Good enough for 13 wins last year. Good enough for home field advantage. One bad half of football ruining the season is the crapshoot that is the NFL postseason.

 

[CowboyRoy]

We have some things they don't have. Dominant Oline. Zeke. And our scheme and coaching aren't the hindrance you seem to think. Good enough for 13 wins last year. Good enough for home field advantage. One bad half of football ruining the season is the crapshoot that is the NFL postseason.

13 wins because we have good coordinators and the dominance at certain areas as you mentioned. But when the playoffs came around in crunch time, our head coach blew it like he always has.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

13 wins because we have good coordinators and the dominance at certain areas as you mentioned. But when the playoffs came around in crunch time, our head coach blew it like he always has.

That's an oversimplified view, but there's no law against that.

 

[Denim Chicken]

More to the point, its all about what OUR team needs. And we have seen quite plainly that OUR team has lost now twice in the playoffs because we cant rush the passer. So although the patriots may have been able to get away with it, OUR team clearly cannot.

True, we need a better pass rush. I wont argue that point. We were bottom ten in hurries last season. My point is you don't need one guy to provide it.

You could also make an argument that upgraded secondary could make the difference as well. Our DBs are in a better position on that throw to the sidelines we win. Also, we only rushed three on that throw, so you could lay blame with the scheme too:

 

[DFWJC]

Yep.
I'm always telling my 9 year old that wants and needs are not at all the same.

 

[tyke1doe]

The point was that there are different ways to build a wining team. The supposition that we have to have guy who gets 15 sacks a year to have an effective defense is invalidated by the fact that the super bowl winners were middle of the pack in sacks and pressure--They succeeded because of a solid backfield and sound tackling.

The past four Super Bowl winners:

2016 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense)
2015 - Broncos (Von Miller, 11 sacks; 7.5 sacks in 11 games)
2014 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense. Bone-headed call by opponent.)
2013 - Seahawks (Legendary defense, Michael Bennet 8.5 sacks, Cliff Avril, 8 sacks)

I don't know if the past four Super Bowl winners exactly support your argument. Two of the past four Super Bowls have been won by the Patriots, who have the best quarterback of this generation and the greatest coaching mind of this generation.
In the Bronco's case, Von Miller registered more than 10 sacks that season.
In Seattle's case, their overall defense was just good, from the front line to the secondary. The defense led that team.
I don't think you could say in 2014 or 2016 that Dallas' defense led its offense. In fact, the talk was how our offense could help our defense via long, sustained drives.

I want to see our defense take prominence. Hopefully, these acquisitions can elevate this defense. Hopefully, Taco is our War Daddy. If not, then hopefully, we collectively can put a defensive squad on the field whose sum is better than its parts.

But it sure helps to have a 10-plus sack monster.

 

[Denim Chicken]

The past four Super Bowl winners:

2016 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense)
2015 - Broncos (Von Miller, 11 sacks; 7.5 sacks in 11 games)
2014 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense. Bone-headed call by opponent.)
2013 - Seahawks (Legendary defense, Michael Bennet 8.5 sacks, Cliff Avril, 8 sacks)

I don't know if the past four Super Bowl winners exactly support your argument. Two of the past four Super Bowls have been won by the Patriots, who have the best quarterback of this generation and the greatest coaching mind of this generation.
In the Bronco's case, Von Miller registered more than 10 sacks that season.
In Seattle's case, their overall defense was just good, from the front line to the secondary. The defense led that team.
I don't think you could say in 2014 or 2016 that Dallas' defense led its offense. In fact, the talk was how our offense could help our defense via long, sustained drives.

I want to see our defense take prominence. Hopefully, these acquisitions can elevate this defense. Hopefully, Taco is our War Daddy. If not, then hopefully, we collectively can put a defensive squad on the field whose sum is better than its parts.

But it sure helps to have a 10-plus sack monster.

I get you point, but our offence is comparable to New England's. We shore up the defense and we're a contender.

 

[robbieruff]

I agree about tone and culture. I'm definitely not opposed to adding a Charles Haley type or trying to find players who can produce a better pass rush. That wasn't the intention of my post. My point is there are different ways to the same conclusion.

As for the Cowboys jumping to the No. 1 ranking in 1992, that was partly because of Haley, no doubt. But other contributions including a young defense with a ton of talent. Tolbert, Norton, Kevin Smith, Robert Jones, Larry Brown, Russell Maryland, Jimmie Jones, Kenny Gant, Darren Woodson, Lett. Norton was 26 and the rest of those names were 25 or younger. We did have a few vets like Haley, Jeffcoat, Holt, Washington, Casillas and Everett, but most of that core was young and developed quickly. It's not unprecedented for a young, talented team - like we have this year - to make the leap.

And just having a Daddy pass rusher doesn't guarantee success, even in the postseason. Look at this year. Vic Beasley is a stud. Freeney was signed for this part of the season. Yet the Patriots were able to come from behind to beat the Falcons by passing exclusively. On their last three TD drives they had 21 pass plays and 3 running plays. There was 1 sack during that time and not near enough pressure to bother Brady.

I think we are generally in agreement...when we got a stud in D Ware in 2006, it didn't propel us to a SB then either...I certainly acknowledge that Haley came into a situation where his addition ENABLED an already ascending defense to reach its full potential; indeed, I think the addition of Thomas Everett was the most underrated addition to that 92 team that helped put us over the top and ensure that we wouldn't be "Erik Kramered" from that moment on (i.e., when we were shredded by the Lions' passing game in 91's divisional round).

Ironically, I think this squad could be in a similar situation as that 91 team, at least defensively...I think a few one or two key additions (via trade or FA) could put us over the top. I would love to have us get someone like a Cameron Wake from the Dolphins (I am pretty sure they are going to be very willing to move on with the Harris selection and Wake in the last year of his contract). While he's no longer at a 92 Haley level I would say he could be a really good Jeffcoat type as a situational rusher and positive veteran influence on that young unit...and he showed he still has something left after bouncing back from injury.

I am excited about this new young group of players and what they can accomplish. I think we should be prepared for some early rough patches as they will be facing some very good QBs this season, but by the season's home stretch they should start to gel and begin making plays. As long as our offense can stick to the script (i.e., control the clock with long drives and limit turnovers), we should be just fine.

 

[CowboyRoy]

True, we need a better pass rush. I wont argue that point. We were bottom ten in hurries last season. My point is you don't need one guy to provide it.

You could also make an argument that upgraded secondary could make the difference as well. Our DBs are in a better position on that throw to the sidelines we win. Also, we only rushed three on that throw, so you could lay blame with the scheme too:

I was pissed that they only rushed 3. I was screaming at the TV when I saw it.

 

[tyke1doe]

I get you point, but our offence is comparable to New England's. We shore up the defense and we're a contender.

Yes, our offense is good. I think it will be better this year. I'm hoping for a Jimmy Johnson leap in the defensive level.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Good post.

Look at the Super Bowl winning Patriots last year. They had 34 sacks last year (tied for 16th) with their sack leader at a whopping 7 sacks.

Yeah, when your coach and assistant coaches are better strategists than most.... itb negates the "ooh ohh stats"

 

[tyke1doe]

I was pissed that they only rushed 3. I was screaming at the TV when I saw it.

I think all of us were. That's why I've lost a bit of confidence in the coaching staff.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The past four Super Bowl winners:

2016 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense)
2015 - Broncos (Von Miller, 11 sacks; 7.5 sacks in 11 games)
2014 - Patriots (Genius at coach, super genius at quarterback. Solid defense. Bone-headed call by opponent.)
2013 - Seahawks (Legendary defense, Michael Bennet 8.5 sacks, Cliff Avril, 8 sacks)

I don't know if the past four Super Bowl winners exactly support your argument. Two of the past four Super Bowls have been won by the Patriots, who have the best quarterback of this generation and the greatest coaching mind of this generation.
In the Bronco's case, Von Miller registered more than 10 sacks that season.
In Seattle's case, their overall defense was just good, from the front line to the secondary. The defense led that team.
I don't think you could say in 2014 or 2016 that Dallas' defense led its offense. In fact, the talk was how our offense could help our defense via long, sustained drives.

I want to see our defense take prominence. Hopefully, these acquisitions can elevate this defense. Hopefully, Taco is our War Daddy. If not, then hopefully, we collectively can put a defensive squad on the field whose sum is better than its parts.

But it sure helps to have a 10-plus sack monster.

How does two of the last few SB winners not having a dominant pass rush not demonstrate his point?

You can make whatever caveats you like but it is there just the same.

Seattle also demonstrates his point. Both Bennett and Avril are quality pass rushers but neither one is dominant. However stacking them together and you get sufficient production.

That was his point. You don't need a war daddy if you stack multiple players of quality.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I think all of us were. That's why I've lost a bit of confidence in the coaching staff.

The problem is no play makers. Jones was right there, but didnt make the play. Lets hope that changes.

 

[tyke1doe]

The problem is no play makers. Jones was right there, but didnt make the play. Lets hope that changes.

I can't fault Jones. It was a throw that either was going to be caught by the Packers TE or thrown out of bounds.
The problem actually began with the three-man front. We should have brought a safety or corner blitz to force Rodgers to get it out of his hands. But we didn't, and the Packers stifled our rush.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I can't fault Jones. It was a throw that either was going to be caught by the Packers TE or thrown out of bounds.
The problem actually began with the three-man front. We should have brought a safety or corner blitz to force Rodgers to get it out of his hands. But we didn't, and the Packers stifled our rush.

I see no harm in laying some blame on Jones. The guy snuck right in behind him in the zone and he was stuck staring at the QB. Incredible pass. I do more blame the 3 man rush as you do.