NFLPA Didn't Even Look At Offer?

Beast_from_East;3876876 said:
Wouldnt 32 seperately owned and operated competitors acting as a single entity in regards to salary compensation (salary cap), hiring restrictions (franchise tags), and their allowcation of their labor pool (the draft).....................constitute collusion?

I am no lawyer, but if the argument is going to be made that the NFL is 32 seperate entitites that are all competitors than the owners are going to get .............. in the courtroom when it comes to Antitrust violations.

All of those things were collectively bargained and are exempt from antitrust laws. They wouldn't violate any antitrust laws unless they were imposed after the CBA expired, which the NFL hasn't done yet -- but which the "trade association" wants to force the NFL to do. That's right, the players are asking the courts to force the NFL to break the law.


Just ask yourself if 32 tech companies could do these things.

If they had a "tech company league," shared most of their revenues and many expenses, sought for competitive balance and collectively bargained with the geeks' union, then yes, they could do those things.
 
AdamJT13;3876888 said:
No, I don't think it would change anything.

This article from Forbes explains why --

I read the article and they explain how the NHL only came to a resolution “after” opening the books. Yet trys to tell you why this situation is different and that it won’t work.

I don’t see how “hiding” information is the better option. By not doing so, it is creating more mistrust. It may not solve the problem but it won’t be a stumbling block.
 
Everlastingxxx;3876893 said:
I read the article and they explain how the NHL only came to a resolution “after” opening the books. Yet trys to tell you why this situation is different and that it won’t work.

I don’t see how “hiding” information is the better option. By not doing so, it is creating more mistrust. It may not solve the problem but it won’t be a stumbling block.

If there is nothing in the books that would solve the problem, why should the NFL teams reveal them?
 
AdamJT13;3876895 said:
If there is nothing in the books that would solve the problem, why should the NFL teams reveal them?

And if there's anything in them that *will* create problems down the road in terms of teams' ability to compete in FA, why *would* NFL teams reveal them?
 
AdamJT13;3876895 said:
If there is nothing in the books that would solve the problem, why should the NFL teams reveal them?

To create trust between the two sides.

If you listened to Brees and Saturday, there is a massive problem in the trust area. Anyone who knows anything about relationships knows trust has to be fixed before you can move forward.
 
Everlastingxxx;3876899 said:
To create trust between the two sides.

If you listened to Brees and Saturday, there is a massive problem in the trust area. Anyone who knows anything about relationships knows trust has to be fixed before you can move forward.

Opening the books won't increase the players' trust, and it certainly won't affect the owners' trust in the players.

If the players are so interested in "trust," are they going to agree to frequent, random blood testing for PEDs and illegal substances? Heck no!

It's not about trust at all. It's about playing their hand.
 
AdamJT13;3876888 said:
No, I don't think it would change anything.

This article from Forbes explains why --

http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/14/nfl-nhl-contracts-opinions-contributors-deepak-malhotra.html




Of course not. I don't think the players have any intention of taking a smaller percentage (not less money), regardless of what the books say.

Are not the cost projections made from data in the books?

If players had access to the books could they not have their own firm do their own cost projections?

With those relative projections in hand could they not determine whether or not owner claims were credible?

The books would certainly show a trend in rising costs if they existed and specific information would give context.
 
FuzzyLumpkins;3876936 said:
Are not the cost projections made from data in the books?

If players had access to the books could they not have their own firm do their own cost projections?

With those relative projections in hand could they not determine whether or not owner claims were credible?

The books would certainly show a trend in rising costs if they existed and specific information would give context.
What could said firm tell the players about utility bills, hotel bill, airfare bills, taxes, etc. that could be changed?

The problem most of us have with "opening the books" is that they are subjective to what you already want to see. They want to see income. They will not pay attention to what is paid out.
 
theogt;3876488 said:
It most certainly is. It may not be a perfect definition of profit, but it is akin to profit. Not all definitions of profits (or "earnings") are the same. Some take into account certain types of "expenses" and some do not. The CBA definition of revenue is neither truly based on profit nor revenue.

It wasn't intended to. It was intended to show the similarity between certain ownership and employment situations.

This just attempts to explain away the financial gamble as well as really huge problems with sustaining and improving the very cruxt of the NFL. To wit, a fully functional stadium and in the reality of a stressed world wide and National economy. Jerry was already ahead of the problem, thank goodness, but the league as a whole shares the burden of expense, and here, cherry picking a definition doesn't elevate the burdens at present, of the owners. Not the players. They are in a booth grabbing free falling monies...
 
Beast_from_East;3876874 said:
The logical explanation for the request is simple.................the owners are telling the players that they need more money "off the top" for reinvestment purposes and such and the players are saying its nothing but a scam for the owners to rake in some extra cash. The request for the books is basically the players saying "prove it".


Now you may disagree with the request, you may think it is totally unreasonable, but there is a logical explanation for it. In other words, even if I dont agree with the request, I still understand the logic behind the request.
I will agree with the definition of that as an "explanation" but I will not agree with you that it is "logical." I find it to be anything but logical.
 
Dough Boy;3876417 said:
Clearly I would agree with your scenario. I'm not going to argue just to argue. But tell me how that correlates to the NFL. The NFL is not set up like an LLC. Its clear the owners pay the employees and that the players pay are not tied to business performance. You will have to bridge that gap for me.

Unless I'm not following the NFL correctly, the players are 'guaranteed' a certain pay and promised a sum certain dollar amount, in the form of a contract that stipulates the time and amount of money they are to be paid if their services are used by said team. What am I missing? In no way can a players pay be tied to revenue. I know about the salary cap, but again, that’s a hard number. If all 32 teams loss money, the salary cap is not redacted. It remains a firm number.

Now owners on the other hand, they can make more or less depending on the total revenue of the team. In your scenario one, I would agree that you are entitled to see the financial statements as you are due to receive 40% of the upside. Again, if we make zero, then you get nothing. Give me a scenario where an NFL player has the potential to play 16 games and make zero dollars?

I see this as the cruxt of all considerations...

At the player's lifestyle, and fully supported in professional considerations in comparison to almost all other trades/skills, they are not being deprived of base level considerations on any non-negotiable element.

That the business of the NFL, fully develops both talent and market value for those same employees...only serves to actually support a somewhat traditional and transcendent umbrella given to sports to begin with. There is also a concept at law, in resonable returns for a product.

No where, have I seen Law or even Common Law where the greed of an employee supercedes that base level of productivity in the hiring and ownership group. That element alone, forces the identification of blatant injustice as well as unreasonableness.

This all boils down, in real function, to applicability and function of a contract. Heck yea, the Union is trying to eleminate that direct foundation in law. They are trying to goad both the owners, and the courts to rule against common sense involved in the protection and foundation of free trade itself. The sacredness of the Contract in the foundation of trade and product.

The owners have stayed within the foundations provided by the UCC, (Uniform Commercial Code) in all of it's endeavors...and as such, are protected by the very essence of law. Simply, uniformity of fairness...JUSTICE!

Where public opinion may sway as to an eye appeal projection of fairness, and extend the 'supposed right' to know all that is involved in the financial affairs of one's employer...that is just NOT the case at law. There is a degree of reasonableness that should apply with such an eye appeal solution. The traditions of common law and even court history has evolved around those protections that secure a business from most hostile and heated environmental aspects. Anonymity is guaranteed to certain degree, as is self determination at an ownership level as well. That is akin to dignity and integrity being exhibited, instead of ajudicated.

What is a frivolous law suite? Well, grossly, the players could even be seen as heading that direction...but I won't include the punitive elements in consideration in this resolution. Using reasonableness as a functional scale, that could be seen as over-kill and not handling the problem at the lowest and simplest level.

Until such time as the Owners do depart from the contractual considerations, the Union should consider some possible fall out in measurement of their own applied motives at court now.

If I were the Court, even with a basis for the requirement in a ruling, I would sting the Union for jumping the events necessitating the request for ruling, and forcing a legal issue to be adjudged before the substantive elements have even actualized in time. That fabricates parts of elements in proof and is contrary to soundness for accredable ajudication to begin with.

But courts are a human element, and we all shall have to await a sequence of cause and effect...and if the lower level is not careful, this will again go to the Supreme Court who established the umbrells for sport to begin with.
 
Beast_from_East;3876869 said:
But wouldnt you agree Adam that the books would at least be a good starting point?

In other words, it is alot easier to negotitate over what the numbers mean than to negotitate over what the numbers are. I guess what I am asking is how is a deal ever going to be negotitated if the owners refuse to show the players the books?

Do you actually think the players are going to just "take their word for it" and take less money in a new CBA?

just because something "exists" doesn't mean you have full rights to it. i know of very few employers who will simply "open their books" for any employee to judge. do you think the players are gonna come in with a "open mind" or are they going to do what many fans do to jerry jones words - twist them to what they want to see/believe?

if they're a public company, books are opened up at the proper time. if not, it's not your right to dig into someone elses business just because you feel you have some "right" to do so.
 
FuzzyLumpkins;3876936 said:
Are not the cost projections made from data in the books?

If players had access to the books could they not have their own firm do their own cost projections?

With those relative projections in hand could they not determine whether or not owner claims were credible?

The books would certainly show a trend in rising costs if they existed and specific information would give context.

Yes they could, and this is probably the way it would play out, with some financial intermediaries analyzing the numbers, if they do open the books. There probably will be disputes regarding the veracity or legitimacy of the financial projections (this is what I do for a living) but it will at least narrow the negotiating informational void that they are facing at the moment.
 
iceberg;3877127 said:
just because something "exists" doesn't mean you have full rights to it. i know of very few employers who will simply "open their books" for any employee to judge. do you think the players are gonna come in with a "open mind" or are they going to do what many fans do to jerry jones words - twist them to what they want to see/believe?

if they're a public company, books are opened up at the proper time. if not, it's not your right to dig into someone elses business just because you feel you have some "right" to do so.

A good 'ol example of contractual responsibilities...forged by who it is agreeing to that contract. And what was agreed upon.
 
CCBoy;3877158 said:
A good 'ol example of contractual responsibilities...forged by who it is agreeing to that contract. And what was agreed upon.

so where in the contracts are the NFL owner books made public? or am i misreading your statement?
 
iceberg;3877170 said:
so where in the contracts are the NFL owner books made public? or am i misreading your statement?

I'm sure that there isn't a contractual provision for that, given that the union has been asking for them for 2 years, without success. The NFLPA probably only had the rights to see the gross revenue figures that were used to calculate the annual cap figures. The request for the historical financials and presumably some of the stadium cost projections that the NFL is alluding to in their opt-out, is purely a negotiating concession.
 
AdamJT13;3876888 said:
No, I don't think it would change anything.

This article from Forbes explains why --

http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/14/nfl-nhl-contracts-opinions-contributors-deepak-malhotra.html
I don't see much convincing in that article. The author actually states that the players' concern re: financials is a legitimate one, but fails to actually explain why the players should not expect to have their concern fully addressed. Instead he offers some unrealistic middle ground that isn't even on the table.
 
theogt;3877218 said:
I don't see much convincing in that article. The author actually states that the players' concern re: financials is a legitimate one, but fails to actually explain why the players should not expect to have their concern fully addressed. Instead he offers some unrealistic middle ground that isn't even on the table.

I think the point is, the NFL isn't losing money right now and if that isn't the case why does the NFLPA need to see the books? It will just report a profit. The owners said escalating costs was the issue. The owners are projecting higher cost in the future which is the core of the problem with them. (at least that is what I read somewhere)
 
nyc;3877235 said:
I think the point is, the NFL isn't losing money right now and if that isn't the case why does the NFLPA need to see the books? It will just report a profit. The owners said escalating costs was the issue. The owners are projecting higher cost in the future which is the core of the problem with them. (at least that is what I read somewhere)
The owners' argument for reducing player pay was the decrease in profitability. If there is no decrease in profitability, the players will just hold out until the owners agree to the players' demands.
 
theogt;3877254 said:
The owners' argument for reducing player pay was the decrease in profitability. If there is no decrease in profitability, the players will just hold out until the owners agree to the players' demands.

I'm thinking the owners can hold out quite a bit longer than the "majority" of the players can. Especially considering 80+% of the players aren't going to benefit from this imbroglio anyhow.
 

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