NFLPA to pursue collusion charges if Bryant, Thomas don't sign long-term deals

[jrumann59]

I heard a report that the source of the Collusion issue, is that Stephen Jones supposedly told Dez in a conversation that he had spoken to Elway about the situation with Thomas.

That is a huge leap to collusion. "Hey John how goes the negotiations", "Stephen these negotiations have been a pain in the tail pipe." There they talked. could be that innocent or there could be more but i highly doubt Stephen is telling Dez well John is telling me they are offering DT, X over X years.

 

[Doomsday101]

The NFLPA represents both Thomas and Dez though. THat's not really collusion.

when they say if you sign them to long term deals then we will back off? if you can prove it there is collusion then bring it on if not then it is nothing but a ploy to force teams to sign deals.

 

[AbeBeta]

That is a huge leap to collusion. "Hey John how goes the negotiations", "Stephen these negotiations have been a pain in the tail pipe." There they talked. could be that innocent or there could be more but i highly doubt Stephen is telling Dez well John is telling me they are offering DT, X over X years.

Why on earth would you doubt that?

To me it is clear that collusion goes on all the time. Proving that there was collusion is what is so very hard to prove.

 

[Doomsday101]

If I were the NFLPA, I think I might argue that the very fact that they could not get a long term deal and were forced to accept the franchise tender is proof that Denver and Dallas set the market, the market being Franchise Tag value. They can then say that Denver and Dallas kept their contract offers low, Dez/Thomas sign the franchise, and by signing the Franchise Tender have been negatively impacted by the actions of Dallas & Denver.

I think the fact that both Dez and Thomas are looking for deal at or above CJ contract in Det is reason for Dallas, Denver or any other team to say we will instead place you on a franchise tag. To me that is not collusion that is good business sense.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yawn.

 

[jrumann59]

Why on earth would you doubt that?

To me it is clear that collusion goes on all the time. Proving that there was collusion is what is so very hard to prove.

While there maybe to admit it a player is totally dumb.

 

[xwalker]

That is a huge leap to collusion. "Hey John how goes the negotiations", "Stephen these negotiations have been a pain in the tail pipe." There they talked. could be that innocent or there could be more but i highly doubt Stephen is telling Dez well John is telling me they are offering DT, X over X years.

No doubt.

I could see where Thomas might have come up in a conversation between Dez and Stephen, but that's not proof of collusion. Even if it did happen, how would they prove it? Recording a phone conversation is illegal. I'm certain it didn't happen via text or email.

 

[CCBoy]

Hell, as to general collusion...collective bargaining is just that. (two parties in agreement)

Even trusts can legally have a collusion if the consumer directly benefits by the unity bringing cheaper prices to the consumer.

This whole freedom of enterprise in the business world is based upon collusions of a variety of nature.

 

[AbeBeta]

No doubt.

I could see where Thomas might have come up in a conversation between Dez and Stephen, but that's not proof of collusion. Even if it did happen, how would they prove it? Recording a phone conversation is illegal. I'm certain it didn't happen via text or email.

Yes but if he said Elway tells me that he doesn't see Megatron's deal as a starting point for negotiation then he's using knowledge of their negotiations in working out a deal with Dez. If Stephen is basing his offer on Denver's offer then it is an act of collusion as they are not independently coming to an agreement.

 

[Reality]

If I were the NFLPA, I think I might argue that the very fact that they could not get a long term deal and were forced to accept the franchise tender is proof that Denver and Dallas set the market, the market being Franchise Tag value. They can then say that Denver and Dallas kept their contract offers low, Dez/Thomas sign the franchise, and by signing the Franchise Tender have been negatively impacted by the actions of Dallas & Denver.

The problem is that the Franchise Tag-based contract is a pre-set pre-determined agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Meaning, if no new contract is signed to replace that, that in itself cannot be contested because it was already legally agreed to by the union and the NFL. That's my point. If the NFLPA really wants to claim collusion, collusion can only happen if a new "tainted" contract is offered (which has happened) and is signed (which has not happened) and there is no other "non-approved" contract on the table.

From a legal standpoint, if no new contract is signed and the pre-agreed-to-by-both-sides franchise offer is on the table, collusion is not possible all because there is a valid, non-debatable contract offer on the table (franchise tag). If there was no CBA preset franchise contract, then collusion would be possible without signing a contract. In fact, if the Cowboys really want to CYA themselves, they just need to pull the contract off the table right before the time frame for signing a new contract ends. Then technically, the franchise contract would be the only contract offer in play and, as I pointed out, it was agreed to by the NFLPA and NFL via CBA so there would be no debating its validity.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yes but if he said Elway tells me that he doesn't see Megatron's deal as a starting point for negotiation then he's using knowledge of their negotiations in working out a deal with Dez. If Stephen is basing his offer on Denver's offer then it is an act of collusion as they are not independently coming to an agreement.

So what is it when Denver says no in the media to Thomas demands of a deal bigger than CJ?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Everyone is a legal scholar today.

I'm going to sit here and continue to wait until Wed at 4.

 

[AbeBeta]

So what is it when Denver says no in the media to Thomas demands of a deal bigger than CJ?

It comes down to the details of the deal. If Stephen did talk to Elway, he's a freaking idiot to bring it up to Dez - that's what is being claimed here.

 

[Reality]

Collusion is also known as price-fixing, generally reserved for anti-trust litigation or causes of action.

You are right, however, that if neither player actually signs a contract before Wednesday, then there has been no actual harm to the player and therefore no collusion. Still, there could be a more ripe cause of action for a failure to exercise good faith negotiations, which can be remedied by a court of law. What that remedy would look like is generally money damages, but with a collectively bargained organization, it becomes a bit unclear what the result would in fact be.

I haven't been doing this law thing for very long, but I continue to remain absolutely dumbfounded that the NFL allegedly has lawyers that are providing guidance and counsel to the front office. This one by the NFLPA surprises me, knowing the track record and experience of De Smith (and also knowing how well the NFLPA has handled past issues thus far under his leadership).

True, but as I pointed out in other posts, price fixing implies there are no valid un-tainted (aka: no collusion involved) offers on the table. Because the franchise tag-based contract is valid due to the NFLPA and NFL agreeing to the terms of the contract in the CBA, its existence negates any potential collusion claims from an offer. Now, if Dez signs the long term contract at less than what he or the NFLPA consider fair market value, that becomes an official legal contract and the NFLPA could definitely file a lawsuit claiming collusion led to the lower amount in the contract.

Collusion in itself is the act of cheating or scheming to negatively impact someone. However, because the franchise contract is on the table, the only way Dez could be "cheated" would be if he signs the long term contract and then proves that its value was negatively affected by collusion among two or more NFL teams.

 

[Doomsday101]

It comes down to the details of the deal. If Stephen did talk to Elway, he's a freaking idiot to bring it up to Dez - that's what is being claimed here.

I understand that, problem is prove it. You have players using twitter and media talking about deals and teams saying NO

 

[burmafrd]

unless they have witnesses or recordings this means NOTHING.

 

[VACowboy]

The TV contracts will be more in this one year than they were for all of Irvin's years combined. I don't know why people want to ignore these facts. The price of a ticket to a single game in the worst seat in the stadium, is more than price of Super Bowl ticket during the 90's. It's a completely different level of money now. As the owners make billions more, the players want to make millions more. There's nothing wrong with everyone wanting their part of the money.

That's well and good, but the players joined a union and collectively bargained the terms of their employ. And now it's time to shut up and do business by the rules to which they agreed. It may not be perfectly fair, but life isn't perfectly fair. The majority of people in the world would love to be as mistreated by their employers as NFL players are.

One more time: It does not make a whit of difference how big TV contracts are, how much merchandise the teams sell or anything else pertaining to the owners' incomes. The salary cap, as set by the CBA and to which all parties have agreed, determines how much money owners have to spend on rosters. That's it. And it cracks me to read and hear fans (of all teams) screaming for their favorite NFL organizations to throw money at players and then whine and moan when they end up with a **** load of dead money on the books, hamstrung by a really crappy cap situation. Personally, I'm happy to see the Cowboys being a little more financially prudent.

Owners aren't the only ones who make big money outside of the CBA, either. Players reap huge cash doing endorsements--something that rarely gets mentioned. Dez's earning potential is greatly magnified just by wearing the star. If Dez's agent worked half as hard cultivating Dez's image and securing endorsement deals as he obviously does encouraging Dez to fight for a bigger piece of a limited pie, his client would make bunches more cash in the immediate future and over the course of his career than he'll ever get by whining in the media and holding out.

 

[coult44]

That's well and good, but the players joined a union and collectively bargained the terms of their employ. And now it's time to shut up and do business by the rules to which they agreed. It may not be perfectly fair, but life isn't perfectly fair. The majority of people in the world would love to be as mistreated by their employers as NFL players are.

One more time: It does not make a whit of difference how big TV contracts are, how much merchandise the teams sell or anything else pertaining to the owners' incomes. The salary cap, as set by the CBA and to which all parties have agreed, determines how much money owners have to spend on rosters. That's it. And it cracks me to read and hear fans (of all teams) screaming for their favorite NFL organizations to throw money at players and then whine and moan when they end up with a **** load of dead money on the books, hamstrung by a really crappy cap situation. Personally, I'm happy to see the Cowboys being a little more financially prudent.

Owners aren't the only ones who make big money outside of the CBA, either. Players reap huge cash doing endorsements--something that rarely gets mentioned. Dez's earning potential is greatly magnified just by wearing the star. If Dez's agent worked half as hard cultivating Dez's image and securing endorsement deals as he obviously does encouraging Dez to fight for a bigger piece of a limited pie, his client would make bunches more cash in the immediate future and over the course of his career than he'll ever get by whining in the media and holding out.

I brought up the television money because he was comparing what players make now, compared to what players like Irvin made. The salary cap is higher now than it was in the 90's. Why? Because of television revenue. It's like talking about that people make $15 minimum wage now, and crying about just 30 years ago it was $3.35.

As far as being more marketable because of the star go's. That's not true anymore. Guys like Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Marcus Mariotta, Watt, Suh, Lynch, ODB, etc. are all just as marketable where they are as they would be in Dallas. Dez will sell as many jerseys, have his name on the same amount of shoes, and be in as many commercials regardless of where he plays. Hopefully that changes again, but it will take a few more years like last year, if we want the Star to be as relevant as it used to be.

 

[yimyammer]

I think the fact that both Dez and Thomas are looking for deal at or above CJ contract in Det is reason for Dallas, Denver or any other team to say we will instead place you on a franchise tag. To me that is not collusion that is good business sense.

Bingo, CJ won the lottery with his last contract because rookie salaries were uncapped at that time and while I understand agents desire to shoot for the moon, CJs terms are a non starter imo.

Unfortunately for Dez, etc, they are currently bound by terms that no longer over-inflate their salaries and if I was making the decisions, I'd hold firm on reasonable terms: I'd guarantee $30+ million now and add more guarantees down the road if Dez stays healthy and continues to perform at a high level. Even if Dez pouted and sat out, I'd hold firm because I believe its just as important to set a precedent of not caving into players demands because I believe the long term negative consequences of caving in are more destructive than the short term benefits of getting the player back on the field.

Risk needs to be more balanced (Miami will be completely screwed if Suh has a career ending injury in training camp that will take years to absorb). I don't think its fair to the team to have to incur 100% of the risk, so if the player wants a lot of guarantees, then he's got to give in other areas. Tough **** if there is a franchise tag that keeps them from receiving a max contract, I'd have zero sympathy for a player set to receive $29M guaranteed over 2 years.

I wish I knew what the real hang up is in getting this done, I find it hard to believe its simply over a few dollars. No matter what deal finally gets done, the risk is always on the team in the early parts of a contract, its only after the player has stayed healthy and continues to play at a high level does the risk start to balance out.

 

[yimyammer]

No doubt.

I could see where Thomas might have come up in a conversation between Dez and Stephen, but that's not proof of collusion. Even if it did happen, how would they prove it? Recording a phone conversation is illegal. I'm certain it didn't happen via text or email.

It is? What law does that fall under?