Parcells/Phillips injury philosophy

[Frozen700]

You can put me with Stautner. Yeah, T.O. runs hard in practice. That's admirable. But he also wants to miss practice when he feels like it. This happened in Philly and San Francisco besides here last year.

With T.O., you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you're hard on him, like Bill and Haley and Brad Childress were, he takes it as "disprespect" or being too hard on him. If you're easy on him, like in San Fran or Andy Reid, he takes advantage of you.

Go ahead and bash me, but it's true. It's another reason I hope he's gone next year. Honestly, he's one of the few things that worries me about this team.

Sorry it that derails your thread, Stanley -- I didn't mean to. I do think there's a fine line between letting hurt guys rest and the whole team taking advantage of that policy to take days off. Maybe Parcells drew the line a little too far in one direction, but I hope we don't go too far in the other. No matter what anyone says, this is not a veteran team, and it's learning a new system on both sides of the ball to boot.

Blah blah....how bout you shut up and go on the field your self? you think its easy? thats common coming from people who never played football in there lives (now watch him respond saying that hes played in High school, and college, that he either got hurt, or it just wasn't for him)

 

[Clove]

Bottom line is, whatever Parcells did here didn't work in the W/L column. Let's see if this staff gets it done.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Blah blah....how bout you shut up and go on the field your self? you think its easy? thats common coming from people who never played football in there lives (now watch him respond saying that hes played in High school, and college, that he either got hurt, or it just wasn't for him)

:laugh2: Classic.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I really believe that Glenn doesn't get his knee done if Parcells was still here. A week off then a gimpy Glenn for the entire year.

No way. Bill read Terry out last summer over taking one practice day off to heal toe blisters - because he had one starting receiver on a stationary bicycle and two of them sets a bad example.

But an injury to the knee? I really, really doubt it.

Tuna tried to use his best judgment, like all coaches do. So when LA failed to pass his first tc 'run', Bill, fearful of a Kory Stringer encore, had him sit out practices til a bit more conditioning kicked in. But he has always had 'words' for prolonged hammy pampering, whether it was calling Terry 'she' for it in his rookie year, or pointedly remarking last summer Owens had NO problem that could be detected by x ray or MRI.

However, I NEVER knew him to ignore, at any of his coaching stints, a medical opinion backed up by evidence. In fact, many times he took the discretion route.

PS on Burnett's concussion - Parcell was not Belichick. NEVER was he EVER accused of dismissing head trauma, or the threat of it.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

No way. Bill read Terry out last summer over taking one practice day off to heal toe blisters - because he had one starting receiver on a stationary bicycle and two of them sets a bad example.

But an injury to the knee? I really, really doubt it.

Tuna tried to use his best judgment, like all coaches do. So when LA failed to pass his first tc 'run', Bill, fearful of a Kory Stringer encore, had him sit out practices til a bit more conditioning kicked in. But he has always had 'words' for prolonged hammy pampering, whether it was calling Terry 'she' for it in his rookie year, or pointedly remarking last summer Owens had NO problem that could be detected by x ray or MRI.

However, I NEVER knew him to ignore, at any of his coaching stints, a medical opinion backed up by evidence. In fact, many times he took the discretion route.

PS on Burnett's concussion - Parcell was not Belichick. NEVER was he EVER accused of dismissing head trauma, or the threat of it.

And where do you think Belichick learned how to treat "malingerers" like those with a concussion?

Parcells didn't give a damn in Dallas after the first year while whoring himself out to Jerry for the house in Saratoga but he never lost the "be a man" Jersey attitude.

 

[Bleu Star]

A new Sheriff is in town for sure--and I like it better as a fan

Me too! :starspin

 

[Bleu Star]

You can put me with Stautner. Yeah, T.O. runs hard in practice. That's admirable. But he also wants to miss practice when he feels like it. This happened in Philly and San Francisco besides here last year.

With T.O., you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you're hard on him, like Bill and Haley and Brad Childress were, he takes it as "disprespect" or being too hard on him. If you're easy on him, like in San Fran or Andy Reid, he takes advantage of you.

Go ahead and bash me, but it's true. It's another reason I hope he's gone next year. Honestly, he's one of the few things that worries me about this team.

Sorry it that derails your thread, Stanley -- I didn't mean to. I do think there's a fine line between letting hurt guys rest and the whole team taking advantage of that policy to take days off. Maybe Parcells drew the line a little too far in one direction, but I hope we don't go too far in the other. No matter what anyone says, this is not a veteran team, and it's learning a new system on both sides of the ball to boot.

There's always one in a crowd. You've just been dying to see Terrell back on the field haven't you? The hibernation is over...

When he's racking up insane stats in our newly tooled dynamic offense that will take advantage of mismatches please be sure to keep a stack of towels closeby so I don't have to deal with overspill from your throat.

 

[Stautner]

Holding out for a contract is far different than doing whatever it took to miss camp because you don't want to be there. And if I recall correctly, he did show up for training camp in Philly. He skipped the minicamps. And prior to his final year or so in SF, I haven't found a thing which said he missed alot of time in training camp.

I guess what I'm confused by what you're saying. Other than for legitimate injuries and contractual issues, where have you read that TO is known for avoiding camps?

I don't think TO is using his dissatisfaction w/ his organization or contract as a way to skip out on TC

not attending TC due to a contract squabble is just a tactic used by players to get what they want and see that their demands are met

Contract squabbles? One year after signing a lucrative FA contract? You guys consider that to be legitimate?

As for last season, TO spent, what, a few weeks on a stationary bike and opted out of drills - which Parcells allowed him to do, despite the fact that MRI's and examinations by the team doctor's showed no damagee to his hamstring ...... and that makes Bill a bad guy in TO's case?

No way. Bill read Terry out last summer over taking one practice day off to heal toe blisters - because he had one starting receiver on a stationary bicycle and two of them sets a bad example.

But an injury to the knee? I really, really doubt it.

Tuna tried to use his best judgment, like all coaches do. So when LA failed to pass his first tc 'run', Bill, fearful of a Kory Stringer encore, had him sit out practices til a bit more conditioning kicked in. But he has always had 'words' for prolonged hammy pampering, whether it was calling Terry 'she' for it in his rookie year, or pointedly remarking last summer Owens had NO problem that could be detected by x ray or MRI.

However, I NEVER knew him to ignore, at any of his coaching stints, a medical opinion backed up by evidence. In fact, many times he took the discretion route.

PS on Burnett's concussion - Parcell was not Belichick. NEVER was he EVER accused of dismissing head trauma, or the threat of it.

Good post. Bill certainly had his faults and we definitely needed a change at head coach, but these guys are just jumping on the bandwagon of bashing Bill for any and every possible thing they can think of.

If someone wrote that Bill was responsible for a rash of athlete's foot by not demanding enough Pine Sol in the showers there would be people lined up to jump on the bandwagon.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Contract squabbles? One year after signing a lucrative FA contract? You guys consider that to be legitimate?

Contract squabbles is the nasty side of football that unfortunately tends to interrupt our fandom. Sitting out is the only thing players feel they can do. So I look at it as just part of doing business. I don't like when players do it, but I understand it. How things in Philly played out in the media, amused me.

As for last season, TO spent, what, a few weeks on a stationary bike and opted out of drills - which Parcells allowed him to do, despite the fact that MRI's and examinations by the team doctor's showed no damagee to his hamstring ...... and that makes Bill a bad guy in TO's case?

Never said that it makes Bill a bad guy. Maybe that's an argument for summer/Bob? Whether the MRI's showed any damage, it was also reported there was bruising on the back of TO's hammy showing that he was legitimately injured. For a guy as dark as T.O. to have visible bruises, was enough proof to me.

I was trying to figure out where you got the idea that TO is known for missing camps, prior to his contractual squabbles and injuries, as if there were never extenuating circumstances behind it.

 

[MrMom]

I guess what I'm confused by what you're saying. Other than for legitimate injuries and contractual issues, where have you read that TO is known for avoiding camps?

:laugh2:

 

[Stautner]

Contract squabbles is the nasty side of football that unfortunately tends to interrupt our fandom. Sitting out is the only thing players feel they can do. So I look at it as just part of doing business. I don't like when players do it, but I understand it. How things in Philly played out in the media, amused me.

Never said that it makes Bill a bad guy. Maybe that's an argument for summer/Bob? Whether the MRI's showed any damage, it was also reported there was bruising on the back of TO's hammy showing that he was legitimately injured. For a guy as dark as T.O. to have visible bruises, was enough proof to me.

I was trying to figure out where you got the idea that TO is known for missing camps, prior to his contractual squabbles and injuries, as if there were never extenuating circumstances behind it.

You and I differ in that I don't understand the holdouts, UNLESS the player's contract has expired. When a player is not under contract and is attempting to negotiate a new one, that is a different story - he has leverage and would be stupid not to use it. But when a player signs a contract and a year later decides he wont abide by it, then I don't understand that at all.

As for Bill being a bad guy - that was the topic of the thread, that Bill would have put his players at risk and Phillips wont.

As for TO's bruises, maybe that was the case at the very start of camp, but I don't recall that was a constant throughout last TC, and in fact, I recall the team physicians saying at some point that they could find no signs that there was damage. I'm pretty sure they would have taken huge bruising through 4 weeks of TC as a sign ........

AS for TO missing camps - I didn't mean to suggest that he habitually missed every training camp from beginning to end, but he has been known for being late, having "nagging injuries" that keep him from working with the team, holding out ....... I personally think it's naive' to believe that every time a player says he can't practice that he can't - especially with someone like TO who has proven many times that his personal agenda supercedes the team's agenda.

I'm sure some of those times were legitimate, but there comes a point where you can't blame a coach if he is suspicious.

 

[WoodysGirl]

:laugh2:

Maybe that doesn't make sense to you... or maybe I worded it incorrectly.

But prior to him having issues with his contract in SF, which were in the latter years of his career there, when did he ever miss a lot of camp time? Where has he seen that TO is known for missing camp? Haven't found a thing to suggest it.

And that's my point. Guys hold out for contracts all the time. That doesn't bother me.

 

[Stautner]

Maybe that doesn't make sense to you... or maybe I worded it incorrectly.

But prior to him having issues with his contract in SF, which were in the latter years of his career there, when did he ever miss a lot of camp time? Where has he seen that TO is known for missing camp? Haven't found a thing to suggest it.

And that's my point. Guys hold out for contracts all the time. That doesn't bother me.

Okay - it doesn't bother you, but it does me. If a guy signs a legitmate contract he expects the team to abide by it, so why shouldn't the team also expect him to abide by it?

AS for missing camp time, I don't think you are getting what I am saying. First, I am not saying that he misses the bulk of 2 out of 3 training camps. Second, I'm not saying the mere reporting to camp is always the problem, I'm saying that he has a little too often had reasons why he can't participate - reasons to report late or reason's like last year's hamstring injury.

I'm not saying every isssue is some huge, prolonged holdout or faked injury, just that that little things add up.

Hell, this is the first time in three years he has reported to camp on time, no issues, ready to practice from the get go.

 

[WoodysGirl]

You and I differ in that I don't understand the holdouts, UNLESS the player's contract has expired. When a player is not under contract and is attempting to negotiate a new one, that is a different story - he has leverage and would be stupid not to use it. But when a player signs a contract and a year later decides he wont abide by it, then I don't understand that at all.

I see your point, but I don't completely agree with it. The NFL is a year-to-year business. Teams can cut a player anytime they feel. I don't think TO was right to hold out in Philly after one year, because he did sign what was a completely new contract that he negotiated. It's when guys are still in the rookie contracts and have clearly outplayed it and choose to hold out to get a new contract that I understand. Larry Johnson is a perfect example of that.

As for Bill being a bad guy - that was the topic of the thread, that Bill would have put his players at risk and Phillips wont.

Oh ok. I think what it is, is that we're hearing more about the nicks and bruises than we did when Bill was in charge.

As for TO's bruises, maybe that was the case at the very start of camp, but I don't recall that was a constant throughout last TC,

Bruises don't go away immediately. There was a reason why it lasted as long as it did.

in fact, I recall the team physicians saying at some point that they could find no signs that there was damage. I'm pretty sure they would have taken huge bruising through 4 weeks of TC as a sign ........

I read the same thing that there was no structural damage, but it doesn't mean his hammy wasn't bruised. Especially when Crayton pointed out that he'd seen the bruising.

AS for TO missing camps - I didn't mean to suggest that he habitually missed every training camp from beginning to end, but he has been known for being late, having "nagging injuries" that keep him from working with the team, holding out ....... .

This is what I was trying to understand. You believe something, but you haven't brought any verifiable proof to it.

I personally think it's naive' to believe that every time a player says he can't practice that he can't - especially with someone like TO who has proven many times that his personal agenda supercedes the team's agenda.

It just depends on the situation. What these guys endure pain-wise go far and beyond what the average joe would endure, so I've never been one to question someone's pain tolerance.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Okay - it doesn't bother you, but it does me. If a guy signs a legitmate contract he expects the team to abide by it, so why shouldn't the team also expect him to abide by it?

because they can cut him at any time.

AS for missing camp time, I don't think you are getting what I am saying. First, I am not saying that he misses the bulk of 2 out of 3 training camps. Second, I'm not saying the mere reporting to camp is always the problem, I'm saying that he has a little too often had reasons why he can't participate - reasons to report late or reason's like last year's hamstring injury.

I'm not saying every isssue is some huge, prolonged holdout or faked injury, just that that little things add up.

Hell, this is the first time in three years he has reported to camp on time, no issues, ready to practice from the get go.

Not going to address this, because I somewhat addressed it in my last post. No reason to go any further with it.

 

[Stautner]

because they can cut him at any time.

Not going to address this, because I somewhat addressed it in my last post. No reason to go any further with it.

The reason that this argument fails is that contractually they are allowed to cut a player. They are not violating the contract when they do or asking for a change in the contract or for something not allowed under the contract.

When a player under contract holds out he is asking for the contract to be changed - he is trying to do something that the contract doesn't provide for - and that's the difference.


What you also fail to recognize is that the reason players get signing bonuses is to protect against gettin cut - they get a big chunk of money before even stepping on the field, they don't even have to earn it before getting paid - and they keep that money even if they get cut. They also often have some portion of their salary guaranteed as well.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Contract squabbles? One year after signing a lucrative FA contract? You guys consider that to be legitimate?

TO wasn't happy w/ his contract, what more is there that needs to be said? it's what players do, it's not going to stop

As for last season, TO spent, what, a few weeks on a stationary bike and opted out of drills - which Parcells allowed him to do, despite the fact that MRI's and examinations by the team doctor's showed no damagee to his hamstring ...... and that makes Bill a bad guy in TO's case?

noone is saying Bill's a bad guy, just that Bill wouldn't hold out TO as a precaution

 

[dogunwo]

There is a balance that has to be maintained. You don't want to play obviously injured players. Coach Parcells' culture made that happen. But sometimes, due to circumstance or necessity, that does have to occur.

Football is a game of pain.

And if you want to be great, you have to play through it.

What if Emmitt Smith had not played through his separated shoulder? What if Coach Johnson had decided it was better to save him for a wildcard game rather than get his best player back out there and win the division title?

The whole factor is consistency.

If this is just a training camp issue, that is not a big problem.

If they are good to go in terms of their understanding or your evaluation needs, why bother at this stage?

But if we see things like this where our injury list gets more than a handful of players long, there is a problem.

The most well thought out post in this thread

 

[Frozen700]

:laugh2: Classic.

lol my bad....i need medicine lol

 

[BouncingCheese]

I agree that Glenn would not have elected to have that surgery if BP was still here. He wouldn't have the cojones (nor should he or anybody else IMO) to let him know he wanted to do it or that it should be so necessary.

BP did it his way, and while it wasn't always the smartest, you couldn't say that his teams weren't tough. All of his teams' players sucked it up and played through the injuries. Often to the detriment of the team. But at least it instilled toughness.

Wade is lucky IMHO that he has almost all of the players and veterans on this team that get what it means to be tough, and the fact that Wade is giving them some rest and time to heal is good for them. I don't know how it would be if Phillips were to start with a bunch of youngsters, and I'm glad we won't find out.