Parcells Still Has Regrets For Leaving Cowboys Early

[Alexander]

Out of morbid curiosity who in the 49ers organization carries more power than Denise York? Who in the Eagles organization carries more power than Jeffrey Lurie?

Don't name drop people like Denise York and Jeffrey Lurie and try to insult my intellect to assume they are nearly as involved in day to day operations nearly as much as Jerry Jones.

It is all about who exercises the power.

Yes, it is understood, well, they are all owners, not general managers who if you asked them to their faces would confirm to you that undeniably they were. You "trumped" everyone again. Bravo.

Do you think Tex Schramm carried more power than Clint Murchison or Bum Bright? If so, please explain to me why in 1966 Tex stepped out of the way and let Clint Murchison deal with the pressure to fire Landry, and Murchison is the one who gave Landry the 10 year extension. Please tell me why Tex allowed Bum bright to order Landry to hire Paul Hackett, and why he was ordering him to demote Ernie Stautner and moved to a 3-4 scheme at the time Jerry bought the team.

In the running of the day to day operations, yes, Tex carried more "power" than Murchison and especially Bright because there were distinguished and defined roles. There was a distinct owner-GM-coach chain of command.

That is something that is very clouded in Jerry Jones' "unique" system which he prides himself in having. Each and every single coach he has employed since Jimmy Johnson has lived by it and knew about it, going in, exactly how it was going to be. There is no ManBehindTheCurtain-CiskowskisortaGM-head coach we all "collectively" make decisions. It all floats up to one place, and that person either can be persuaded or has his own opinion.

He would never stand for Jason Garrett pulling a trade or Ciskowski sending in a card without his approval. That was exactly what drove the wedge between Jones and Johnson in the first place.

How come no Head Coach fired by Jones hates him? How come none of them are playing your "trump card?"

Would you come out and insult one of the more powerful individuals in the sport? Not one time, will you ever be able to produce a quote from any of these head coaches that could ever say that they respected Jerry Jones' football knowledge. Not one.

And quite frankly, why would they hate him? He does "listen" more than most. He's got deep pockets. In today's NFL, that is not always the case. And that is almost exactly what Coach Parcells stated.

That still does not excuse him of being perhaps one of the worst breeds of GMs in the sport, and there are only a couple.

 

[Hostile]

Don't name drop people like Denise York and Jeffrey Lurie and try to insult my intellect to assume they are nearly as involved in day to day operations nearly as much as Jerry Jones.

If you feel insulted, blame yourself.

It is all about who exercises the power.

Right, the owner does. Regardless of any other title, or lack thereof.

In the running of the day to day operations, yes, Tex carried more "power" than Murchison and especially Bright because there were distinguished and defined roles. There was a distinct owner-GM-coach chain of command.

This is a dodge attempt. Who had more power Tex or Clint? Tex or Bum?

That is something that is very clouded in Jerry Jones' "unique" system which he prides himself in having. Each and every single coach he has employed since Jimmy Johnson has lived by it and knew about it, going in, exactly how it was going to be. There is no ManBehindTheCurtain-CiskowskisortaGM-head coach we all "collectively" make decisions. It all floats up to one place, and that person either can be persuaded or has his own opinion.

He would never stand for Jason Garrett pulling a trade or Ciskowski sending in a card without his approval. That was exactly what drove the wedge between Jones and Johnson in the first place.

No it wasn't. Jerry didn't even know who Tony Casillas was according to Jimmy, and that was after we acquired him.

Would you come out and insult one of the more powerful individuals in the sport? Not one time, will you ever be able to produce a quote from any of these head coaches that could ever say that they respected Jerry Jones' football knowledge. Not one.

Yes, I would. I sort of did already in this thread. That's great because Jerry isn't a football man, that has always been Bob Ackles, Larry Lacewell, Jeff Ireland, Tom Ciskowski, and the Head coaches and their staffs. I'd put money on Jerry knowing more about the game than a lot of you guys think he does. But again, I'm not defending him.

And quite frankly, why would they hate him? He does "listen" more than most. He's got deep pockets. In today's NFL, that is not always the case. And that is almost exactly what Coach Parcells stated.

That still does not excuse him of being perhaps one of the worst breeds of GMs in the sport, and there are only a couple.

Yet Parcells, a man noted for his impatience with owners, doesn't back your theory up. Lord that must suck. The guy who made famous the buying groceries comment, the poster boy for Head Coach pissed at an owner...and you've got nothing.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I take it I just got threatened, since you used the word participate.

I believe this sums up the entire problem between us. You see that as a threat. I see it as continuing this discussion in private via this board.

This is your problem, Sonny Jim, not mine.

 

[junk]

Ugh. Jerry is by far the biggest issue with this franchise. Now and for the last decade and a half plus. I don't know why it even continues to get debated. It should be obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense.

It'd be amazing what this team could do with a strong general manager (who is actually committed to the job and spends time on it) and a strong head coach. Just look what happened in SF when that happened.

Sorry, Jerry's unique "collective decision" organization just doesn't work.

 

[Hostile]

I see it as continuing this discussion in private via this board.

Then you should have just done that.

 

[Alexander]

If you feel insulted, blame yourself.

No, I actually get insulted because frankly you are selling a complete line to whomever is gullible enough to believe it. York and Lurie do not involve themselves to the degree Jerry Jones does. Baalke runs the 49ers, Reid ran the Eagles for years and now it appears Roseman does.

Is that a..."dodge" on your part? Why yes, it appears to be the case.

Right, the owner does. Regardless of any other title, or lack thereof.

This is a dodge attempt. Who had more power Tex or Clint? Tex or Bum?

Tex. And Tex. Again. Clear enough?

Someone owned the team (Clint or Bum), hired a general manager who was directly accountable and then left it alone, interjecting in higher level decisions that the majority of owners in the NFL do every day. Traditional, and from what has proven to be the most effective, hands off unless they are holding employees at the executive level to task.

In fact, your attempt here to even imply for a second that a man who bought the Cowboys (Bright, just so we are clear) solely as an investment wanted to be involved down to the level that Jones has made clear from day one is pretty embarrassing.

Yes, I would. I sort of did already in this thread. That's great because Jerry isn't a football man, that has always been Bob Ackles, Larry Lacewell, Jeff Ireland, Tom Ciskowski, and the Head coaches and their staffs.

And the football men are rarely left to make the decisions since Jimmy Johnson decided to leave. And he did leave...wasn't "run off". He just decided he did not want to deal with the idiocy any longer. Ackles was a person that Jerry Jones himself fired. Lacewell is and has been a long time crony. Ireland? Well, he was viewed as nothing but an "information gatherer" in Jerry Jones' own words when he departed for Miami. Ciskowski? Well, he might be a smarter version of Lacewell, but we all know he has got to be fairly loyal. But yes, maybe you are right. It has always been this transient group that has been the real movers and shakers in this organization.

I'd put money on Jerry knowing more about the game than a lot of you guys think he does. But again, I'm not defending him.

Of course not.

Yet Parcells, a man noted for his impatience with owners, doesn't back your theory up. Lord that must suck. The guy who made famous the buying groceries comment, the poster boy for Head Coach pissed at an owner...and you've got nothing.

Parcells was not exactly impatient with Bob Kraft. He was impatient with the circumstance, where Kraft directly backed, in a public and private way, his scouting staff headed by Bobby Grier. Kraft himself has admitted that was a mistake he made as a new owner. Parcells made a clear case, he wanted the complete authority, Kraft was not going to allow it at the time. In fact, your "pissed" commentary flies directly in the face of what Parcells has recently said about Bob Kraft:

The relationship became untenable two months later when Kraft orchestrated a draft-day, first-round coup d’etat, ordering personnel director Bobby Grier to select Terry Glenn instead of Parcells’s choice, a defensive lineman.
“That was when I kind of found out that I was going to be a little on the back burner when it came to personnel,’’ said Parcells. “Someone else was going to be calling the shots. That was something that bothered me because I wasn’t 100 percent confident in the people that were doing it. When you have a new ownership, there’s a little politics that go on within an organization. People try to curry favor with the organization. That’s what happened. Certainly I was upset with what had transpired. People had convinced Bob that the quarterback-receiver tandem was the thing that was going to elevate the franchise, and the case in point was Joe Montana and Jerry Rice. So when a player like Terry Glenn was available we wound up picking him. It worked out very well. As soon as we got him, I was glad to have him. I did my best to make him a good player and we did have a lot of firepower.’’

But yes, continue with the idea that Parcells was "pissed" at the owner. He speaks of Kraft as fondly as Jones.

 

[Hostile]

No, I actually get insulted because frankly you are selling a complete line to whomever is gullible enough to believe it. York and Lurie do not involve themselves to the degree Jerry Jones does. Baalke runs the 49ers, Reid ran the Eagles for years and now it appears Roseman does.

For the life of me I just don't know why you care how much anyone who invests millions of dollars into their business is involved. I see Jerry's involvement as financial, because that is what he does. He is not a talent scout. Move past the damned title.

Is that a..."dodge" on your part? Why yes, it appears to be the case.

Get your eyes checked.

Someone owned the team (Clint or Bum), hired a general manager who was directly accountable and then left it alone, interjecting in higher level decisions that the majority of owners in the NFL do every day. Traditional, and from what has proven to be the most effective, hands off unless they are holding employees at the executive level to task.

I think it's hilarious that you actually think they left the team alone, all alone in Tex's capable hands. Excuse me, would you please provide some proof. Show me that they never sat in the meetings and discussed ticket sales, concessions, memorabilia, or any other aspect of management. You can't and we both know it.

By the way, Jeffrey Lurie's wife is who made the final call on signing Michael Vick. So please do not try to tell me owners, and their families aren't involved in their business.

In fact, your attempt here to even imply for a second that a man who bought the Cowboys (Bright, just so we are clear) solely as an investment wanted to be involved down to the level that Jones has made clear from day one is pretty embarrassing.

Wait, I never said involved to the same level as Jones. You're grasping at straws. Who wanted Paul Hackett as OC in Dallas? Tom Landry, Tex Schramm, Gil Brandt, or Bum Bright?

OC is not football related? Coaching staff is not football related? There's alcohol in your Haterade.

And the football men are rarely left to make the decisions since Jimmy Johnson decided to leave. And he did leave...wasn't "run off". He just decided he did not want to deal with the idiocy any longer. Ackles was a person that Jerry Jones himself fired. Lacewell is and has been a long time crony. Ireland? Well, he was viewed as nothing but an "information gatherer" in Jerry Jones' own words when he departed for Miami. Ciskowski? Well, he might be a smarter version of Lacewell, but we all know he has got to be fairly loyal. But yes, maybe you are right. It has always been this transient group that has been the real movers and shakers in this organization.

Yet in 2013 when Jason Garrett was in Indianapolis interviewing assistant coaching candidates, Jerry Jones and his wife were in Colorado at the X Games.

You really do think he's Oz. It's funny.

Parcells was not exactly impatient with Bob Kraft. He was impatient with the circumstance, where Kraft directly backed, in a public and private way, his scouting staff headed by Bobby Grier. Kraft himself has admitted that was a mistake he made as a new owner. Parcells made a clear case, he wanted the complete authority, Kraft was not going to allow it at the time. In fact, your "pissed" commentary flies directly in the face of what Parcells has recently said about Bob Kraft:

Not sure what this has to do with your point that Jerry clearly interfered with Parcells though Parcells does not say so.

 

[Zordon]

*in JR's voice*

Hostile, TwoDeep going toe to toe in the ring!!


wait...wait...who's that in the rafters??!


it's...it's...IT'S IRVING COWBOY! GOOD GAWDALMIGHTY IT'S IRVING COWBOY!


OH MY GOODNESS FOLKS DON'T TURN THAT DIAL, THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET VERY INTERESTING.

 

[OhSnap]

Ugh. Jerry is by far the biggest issue with this franchise. Now and for the last decade and a half plus. I don't know why it even continues to get debated. It should be obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense.

It'd be amazing what this team could do with a strong general manager (who is actually committed to the job and spends time on it) and a strong head coach. Just look what happened in SF when that happened.

Sorry, Jerry's unique "collective decision" organization just doesn't work.

SF is a perfect example of what happens when you hire GM's. After rolling the dice again and again they hit pay dirt and have 2 good seasons in the last 10 years. A few years ago everyone used the Saints for an example when after 28 years they hit pay dirt and the list goes on and on. Hiring GM's is rolling the dice, if it was a sure thing everyone would have a SB trophy. How many GM's do you think Cleveland or Miami has had?

 

[Hostile]

SF is a perfect example of what happens when you hire GM's. After rolling the dice again and again they hit pay dirt and have 2 good seasons in the last 10 years. A few years ago everyone used the Saints for an example when after 28 years they hit pay dirt and the list goes on and on. Hiring GM's is rolling the dice, if it was a sure thing everyone would have a SB trophy. How many GM's do you think Cleveland or Miami has had?

Jeff Ireland was the GM in Miami who answered to the Team President Bill Parcells. It is just a title. He's still doing his job.

 

[jobberone]

Interesting conversation about Jerry. Let's leave it about Jerry and Dallas football and not each other.

 

[OhSnap]

Jeff Ireland was the GM in Miami who answered to the Team President Bill Parcells. It is just a title. He's still doing his job.

Rings a bell now that you mention it. I just don't buy into this GM thing. I think theres less good GM's than there is starting QB's and even they miss regularly.

 

[Hostile]

Interesting conversation about Jerry. Let's leave it about Jerry and Dallas football and not each other.

See, and I thought it was about Parcells.

 

[jobberone]

See, and I thought it was about Parcells.

Ok, that too but you know exactly what I meant.

 

[Alexander]

For the life of me I just don't know why you care how much anyone who invests millions of dollars into their business is involved. I see Jerry's involvement as financial, because that is what he does. He is not a talent scout. Move past the damned title.

So other owners don't invest the same amount of money?

I realize he is not a talent scout. That is the problem. But the unfortunate part is that from time to time he does think he is.

The "damned title" wouldn't concern me if, well, he were nearly as impotent and as much of a figurehead as you pretend he is.

I think it's hilarious that you actually think they left the team alone, all alone in Tex's capable hands. Excuse me, would you please provide some proof. Show me that they never sat in the meetings and discussed ticket sales, concessions, memorabilia, or any other aspect of management. You can't and we both know it.

There is plenty of evidence out there that Tex Schramm was the driving force of this franchise during that era.

Sorry, don't challenge me to prove something that is self evident, even to a novice who was never around to witness it.

How about you "provide some proof" that Bum Bright was anything but an investor owner? I can dig up quotes that suggest he was just that.

Can you provide otherwise?

And since when are ticket sales, concessions, memorabilia etc. even relevant to what the real issue is here?

If that is all Jerry Jones was involved in, I would love the man.

But the cold hard fact is---and again he would say this directly to your face---he is not.

By the way, Jeffrey Lurie's wife is who made the final call on signing Michael Vick. So please do not try to tell me owners, and their families aren't involved in their business.

LOL

Yes. Lurie's wife made the "final call". No, she went to bat for him. But I am struggling to see your point.

Every owner is involved in various phases of the team they own.

The fact is that just that no owners, other than the late Al Davis and Mike Brown are anything close to what Jerry Jones is each and every day.

So, when you want to "compare and contrast", how about leaving people like Denise York out of it because it really makes you look foolish.

Wait, I never said involved to the same level as Jones. You're grasping at straws. Who wanted Paul Hackett as OC in Dallas? Tom Landry, Tex Schramm, Gil Brandt, or Bum Bright?

So Bright hiring Hackett equals anything close to what we already know Jones has done over and over again?

If Jones is so hands off, why force Houck on his coach who wanted Solari? Why hire the OC golden boy in Garrett before hiring the coach? Why run off Dan Reeves over a time clock. I can go on and on, without even breaking a sweat if you want to compare what Jerry Jones does and continues to do versus the behavior of the majority of owners in the NFL right now, if not NFL history.

OC is not football related? Coaching staff is not football related? There's alcohol in your Haterade.

Did you just use the word Haterade in a debate? Comical. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yet in 2013 when Jason Garrett was in Indianapolis interviewing assistant coaching candidates, Jerry Jones and his wife were in Colorado at the X Games.

You really do think he's Oz. It's funny.

He actually is not Oz. He is worse. He picks and chooses when to get involved when he is not qualified instead of entrusting his employees to be accountable.

 

[Hostile]

Sorry, don't challenge me to prove something that is self evident, even to a novice who was never around to witness it.

The challenge stands. Don't run from it.

How about you "provide some proof" that Bum Bright was anything but an investor owner? I can dig up quotes that suggest he was just that.

Can you provide otherwise?

I already have. The hiring of Paul Hackett.

And since when are ticket sales, concessions, memorabilia etc. even relevant to what the real issue is here?

Football is their business. That business happens to have multiple facets.

Yes. Lurie's wife made the "final call". No, she went to bat for him. But I am struggling to see your point.

I'm shocked.

Every owner is involved in various phases of the team they own.

The fact is that just that no owners, other than the late Al Davis and Mike Brown are anything close to what Jerry Jones is each and every day.

So, when you want to "compare and contrast", how about leaving people like Denise York out of it because it really makes you look foolish.

No, the foolish is that you moved the goal posts. You stated no one else has his power. Not true. Every owner has the power of being the...wait for it...owner.

Did you just use the word Haterade in a debate? Comical. You should be ashamed of yourself.

It was meant to comical, so no shame.

 

[Plankton]

Wait, I never said involved to the same level as Jones. You're grasping at straws. Who wanted Paul Hackett as OC in Dallas? Tom Landry, Tex Schramm, Gil Brandt, or Bum Bright?

OC is not football related? Coaching staff is not football related? There's alcohol in your Haterade.

Not sure where you are getting this from. Bum Bright wouldn't have been able to pick Paul Hackett out of a lineup before he got to Dallas.

Bright was the head of regents at Texas A&M. Hackett was entirely a west coast guy from college on forward, with the exception of two years in Cleveland (prior to Bright buying the Cowboys).

Bright was as absentee an owner as you could find. His quote at his press conference when he bought the team: "If you thought that Clint was invisible, well, you ain't seen nothing yet."

Schramm brought Hackett on board after admiring his work with the 49ers, and after Hackett just missed out on being hired to replace Hugh Campbell with the Oilers. Landry was not involved in this at all. Schramm wanted to groom Landry's replacement while Landry was still the coach. Schramm also strongly advised Landry to have Jim Erkenbeck replace Jim Myers when he retired as line coach. After Hackett and Landry had problems, Schramm then reached out to Jimmy Johnson in 1988. Johnson was actually in the Cowboys' box at the Super Bowl in 88 watching the game with Schramm, Gil Brandt and Landry. Johnson declined the offer.

The extent to which Bright involved himself in the operation was two occasions: 1 was when he asked Schramm to sign Landry to 3 one year contracts after the 1986 season (Landry went to Schramm and asked for a three year deal - Schramm defied Bright and signed Landry to a 3 year deal). The other was when he sold the team in 1989. Other than that, not much involvement.

I know that you have dug yourself in on this argument, but this was not a good example to bring up in support of how the Cowboys are currently run. Schramm ran the organization lock stock and barrel. Hell, he represented the Cowboys at the owners meetings.

 

[Hostile]

Not sure where you are getting this from. Bum Bright wouldn't have been able to pick Paul Hackett out of a lineup before he got to Dallas.

Bright was the head of regents at Texas A&M. Hackett was entirely a west coast guy from college on forward, with the exception of two years in Cleveland (prior to Bright buying the Cowboys).

Bright was as absentee an owner as you could find. His quote at his press conference when he bought the team: "If you thought that Clint was invisible, well, you ain't seen nothing yet."

Schramm brought Hackett on board after admiring his work with the 49ers, and after Hackett just missed out on being hired to replace Hugh Campbell with the Oilers. Landry was not involved in this at all. Schramm wanted to groom Landry's replacement while Landry was still the coach. Schramm also strongly advised Landry to have Jim Erkenbeck replace Jim Myers when he retired as line coach. After Hackett and Landry had problems, Schramm then reached out to Jimmy Johnson in 1988. Johnson was actually in the Cowboys' box at the Super Bowl in 88 watching the game with Schramm, Gil Brandt and Landry. Johnson declined the offer.

The extent to which Bright involved himself in the operation was two occasions: 1 was when he asked Schramm to sign Landry to 3 one year contracts after the 1986 season (Landry went to Schramm and asked for a three year deal - Schramm defied Bright and signed Landry to a 3 year deal). The other was when he sold the team in 1989. Other than that, not much involvement.

I know that you have dug yourself in on this argument, but this was not a good example to bring up in support of how the Cowboys are currently run. Schramm ran the organization lock stock and barrel. Hell, he represented the Cowboys at the owners meetings.

Peter Golenbeck's book.

 

[junk]

Great post, Plankton. Always interesting to learn a little about the history of the team

 

[Plankton]

Peter Golenbeck's book.

Read Tex Schramm and Tom Landry's autobiographies - they would paint an entirely different picture.