PFW: Can Cowboys’ Carpenter remove bust tag?

[Alexander]

I think no matter what Carpenter does this year he is already a bust considering where he was selected. Parcells took him because he knew his dad but the kid was a reach and should never have been taken that high. Had we selected him in the 2nd or 3rd round he would be OK but not in the middle of the first.

I don't necessarily agree. This wasn't your classic reach where he went a round or two early (ala Kavika Pittman or Shante Carver). He likely would have gone much later in the round or drip down into the upper part of the second but I know teams like the Patriots also were looking at him for the exact same thing we have had him doing all along. I don't think anyone was prepared for the fact he is a cake eater. I know he turned some teams off at his Pro Day for being a bit of a prima donna, but even his scouting reports did not pinpoint just how ineffective he was in terms of backside physical support.

Here is one report that seems fairly consistent with what I recall at the time:

ANALYSIS
Positives: Has a tall, athletic frame with good upper body muscle tone, long arms, thick legs, good bubble and loose hips to accelerate and close on the ball...Naturally fast runner who moves effortlessly when changing direction and has the range to make plays down the line...Smart and instinctive athlete who loves to physically challenge the tight ends by coming right up to the line of scrimmage and attacking his defender immediately after the ball is snapped...Makes good body adjustments on the move and knows how to use his power to face up and attack the inside rush lanes...Keeps position at the point of attack and takes good angles in pursuit, as he is very effective at maintaining leverage and keeping containment (see 2005 Texas game)...Showed good improvement with his hands in 2005 in attempts to fend off blocks and pursue the play...Has the slippery moves to avoid trash and shows a quick burst to cut off the runner at the corners...Effective tackler who won't punish the opponent, but can brake down, face up and wrap when working in space...Shows good balance on the move and is quick to break out of his pedal to mirror receivers past the short area...Has the smooth turning motion and loose hips to get good depth on his pass drops and keeps his head on a swivel...Times his leaps well competing for the pass and will settle with speed to close and make plays on the ball...Does a good job of reaching and plucking the ball away from the body's frame...Physical pass rusher with a punishing club move to rock offensive linemen back on their heels...Generates good speed while taking proper angles to close on the pocket.

Negatives: Has strong hands to grab, pull and jerk blockers to the ground, but when he does not get them up quickly, blockers lock on to his pads and he struggles to disengage...Has good power, but is more of a finesse tackler than one that will generate pop on contact...Demonstrated good pass rush ability as a senior due to better hand usage, but is more comfortable in run containment that blitzing...Loses leverage when he gets too high in his stance, narrowing his base in the process.

Carpenter is a well-schooled run containment defender with good size and power. He has enough bulk to even play down as a defensive end in the nickel package and has been known for his highlight reel-type of hits on the kickoff coverage unit. He is the son of former NFL running back Rob Carpenter, who also coached Carpenter and his brothers in high school.
Carpenter is a smart and instinctive athlete with a good feel for blocking schemes and the awareness to quickly sniff out the ball when working through trash. He attacks the rush lanes with good aggression and has the hand punch to push the fullback back through the lanes, when he stays low in his pads. When he gets too erect in his stance, he will lose leverage and the result is the blocker latching on to his pads, causing him to struggle trying to shed.

He has the natural strength to create a pile, but is more of a finesse tackler. While he is effective at wrapping and securing, he needs to generate more pop on contact. Carpenter showed much improved pass rush moves, especially the rip and club, as a senior, producing eight sacks in the process. He closes on the pocket with good desire and has the speed to disrupt the plays in backside pursuit. Still, he appears more comfortable in run containment than when blitzing.

Carpenter has the valid speed, feet and acceleration to handle man coverage assignments. He has the loose hips to come out of his breaks cleanly and is smooth dropping back into pass coverage, getting good depth in those drops. He is also very effective at getting physical and using his hands to reroute tight ends at the line of scrimmage.
His ability to flow from sideline-to-sideline allows him to chase hard in making plays vs. the outside run. He is quick to digest plays and has the passion to make plays, even at the cost of his own safety. At the pro level, he can provide a team with a physical presence at the strong-side position. He did suffer a season-ending broken ankle in 2005, but as a testament to his work ethic and conditioning, he was back running with the team (though held out of the game as a precaution) four weeks later preparing for the Fiesta Bowl.

That said, I just don't see him as a good fit for our defense and he will be gone after this season, assuming he even makes the final roster after preseason. Personally, I would rather see if we could trade him to Miami since Parcells wanted him so bad to begin with. I would hate to keep him at the expense of one this year's draft picks only to scrap him after the season.

Our chance to unload him to Miami probably was last year. We could have a decision to make with lower priced options like Hodge and Williams, so he might end up being cut before traded. The best chance is for a trade is likely in a player for player trade, bust for bust. That tends to be what happens with players as disappointing as he has been.

He might become a player in a 4-3 defense but I just don't see him as a 3-4 LB. Maybe a team like the Colts would be willing to trade for him.

It would have to be a 4-3 team like that who doesn't expect a lot of physicality and prefers coverage types (the Bears also could fit). He'd still be out of place in some places. I know it seems like a joke, but it is pretty real if you watch him play, far too much grabbing and not enough hitting.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

ALL the scouting reports had Carpenter as the most NFL ready LB in the draft.
Some of you are convienently forgetting that the experiment with Ellis at OLB had not happened and no one knew if it would work.
Carpenter was thought of as the safest pick we could make. Turned out wrong but no one really knew that at the time. I have no doubt that BP did factor in his pedigree and knowing his dad- because that USUALLY is a good indicator. The more you know about a pick USUALLY the better. Did not work in this case but at the time it looked like a safe pick.

It scares me when we agree...but in this case we do.

He was considered the safe NFL ready pick.

He just has not panned out, just like other first round picks have not panned out for many teams over the years.

 

[BlueStar II]

Had he not had A.J. Hawk beside him, he never would've been considered a 1st round prospect. Overated and overhyped from the word go, and I would not hold my breath on him ever removing the 'bust' tag. He'll finish his career somewhere else as a lifetime backup and special teamer.

:starspin Well said....indeed.

 

[Apollo Creed]

That 2006 draft really hurt us. We went 1 for 7. I counted Hatcher and McQuistan as .5 each.

Carpenter, Fasano, Hatcher, Green, Watkins, Stanley, McQuistan, and Whitley.

Thank goodness for a year like 08 when we got instant contributions from guys Felix, Jenkins, Bennett, Choice, and Scandrick.

5 out of 6.

 

[burmafrd]

And every one of them had good scouting reports on them. sometimes that means something and sometimes it does not.

 

[Apollo Creed]

And every one of them had good scouting reports on them. sometimes that means something and sometimes it does not.

Yeah but you almost have to try really hard to miss in all 7 rounds.

 

[burmafrd]

It happens. Just like 2005 was a home run sometimes you strike out.

 

[cobra]

Carpenter has shown he was not worth his draft pick. Case closed. There is no need to argue about it. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and throw out all the labels you want.

But by this point, we have to stop holding it against the guy and change the question to "does he deserve a roster spot." The draft issue is done. It's over. It does not matter now, and there is no benefit to keep bringing it up. We need to judge Bobby Carpenter the player. Not Bobby Carpenter the first round draft pick.

Bobby's rookie contract will come up, and he knows he is not going to get a starting contract or anything close to it. He won't even get a Burnett like one. But the team needs to decide whether he is worth another contract that is modest and indicative of his value (not his draft pick).

If we want to have a good football team, we need to get past the vacant-headed obsesssion with identifying someone as a bust and holding it against them. We need to just look at the guy and decide if he is a contributor. Forget about that stuff. Don't argue over whether it was a moronic decision or just an unfortunate one to draft him. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Instead, argue over whether he brings something enough to the table deserve a spot moreso than a guy like Justin Rogers or Matt Stewart or Steve Octavien. Nothing is accomplished by continuing to focus on how we acquired the guy other than fan's ignorant desire to pound their chests.

 

[CliffnDallas]

Can Cowboys’ Carpenter remove bust tag?

I don't know. It's pretty far up his arse. He might need tongs.

 

[Dodger]

Instead, argue over whether he brings something enough to the table deserve a spot moreso than a guy like Justin Rogers or Matt Stewart or Steve Octavien.

Nice post.

Though the debate over whether or not he even deserves a roster spot should probably wait for a couple of months. We can all make a guess at this point as to what might happen, but from what I've read, the nickel LB spot is his to lose, and if he can produce in that role, then perhaps he can keep his job.

Of course, even if he does produce (and shock most of us in the process), he just might want to try and find a better fit elsewhere after this season.

Either way, I think this is his last year as a Cowboy.

 

[superpunk]

That 2006 draft really hurt us. We went 1 for 7. I counted Hatcher and McQuistan as .5 each.

Carpenter, Fasano, Hatcher, Green, Watkins, Stanley, McQuistan, and Whitley.

Thank goodness for a year like 08 when we got instant contributions from guys Felix, Jenkins, Bennett, Choice, and Scandrick.

5 out of 6.

How does Watkins not even warrant a half? He's certainly contributed more to the team than McQ. If McQ's getting a half, then so do Carpenter, Fasano and Watkins.

Terrible draft, but maybe not all-time bad. Almost all of those guys are still NFL players after three years. There's something to be said for that. Carpenter just makes the whole thing look terrible.

 

[cobra]

Some of y'all just have no idea how to evaluate a draft.

There is a fixed number of starters.

I see someone saying that Hatcher was not a good pick, presumably because he is not starting.

Of course, if he was starting last year, that would mean that another pick (Spears or Canty) would not have been starting. So I guess you would knock them.

Not everyone starts. Valuable depth players are in fact valuable. And certainly worthy of 3rd round picks.

Just because a player is not starting does not mean they were a waste of a pick.

 

[jobberone]

Some of y'all just have no idea how to evaluate a draft.

There is a fixed number of starters.

I see someone saying that Hatcher was not a good pick, presumably because he is not starting.

Of course, if he was starting last year, that would mean that another pick (Spears or Canty) would not have been starting. So I guess you would knock them.

Not everyone starts. Valuable depth players are in fact valuable. And certainly worthy of 3rd round picks.

Just because a player is not starting does not mean they were a waste of a pick.

Agreed. Not all can be starters or stars. Hatcher is a valuable player. Watkins has been. Some don't think what would have happened had he not been around. I say we would have been worse even if he isn't quite starter material. He's a decent backup. Not saying he deserves a roster spot but he's better than Killa was. IMO.

But I do agree Carpenter is a bust as a number one pick. You don't hit on them all but you can sure lament over them.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I still don't quite understand how there is this assumption he's automatically better in a 4-3.

He would still have to be physical in that defense as well. That is the problem just as much if not more than the scheme he's asked to play.

Exactly.

 

[CATCH17]

Because in a 4-3 he would most likely be asked to be a Right Outside Linebacker and he wouldn't have to take on near the amount of blocks that he would have to in a 3-4 as a middle backer.


That Middle spot in a 3-4 is almost like being a defensive tackle.

The linebackers in a 4-3 get protected a lot more because of their line in front of them.

Basically all he would be asked to do is fly to the ball and maybe eat up a lead block occasionally in that defense.

 

[Alexander]

That Middle spot in a 3-4 is almost like being a defensive tackle.

Not necessarily. 220-lb Donnie Edwards played inside in San Diego and he hardly was operating like a DT.

Phillips will scheme around anyone and has in the past.

But you simply cannot shy away from contact.

The linebackers in a 4-3 get protected a lot more because of their line in front of them.

Basically all he would be asked to do is fly to the ball and maybe eat up a lead block occasionally in that defense.

So what is he going to do after he flies to the ball? In Carpenter's case, he might fall down and hope he trips the ball carrier or grab him and hang on for dear life.

The Jimmy Johnson Cowboy 4-3 had some of the smaller faster LBers but even those players had bring the lumber in order to run support. Darrin Smith and Dixon Edwards may have been small but they could hit.

Linebackers in general can't be wallflowers. Minnesota has space eaters up front, but Chad Greenway has to scrape and fill.

It is not the scheme. It is the player. This is football. Not a beauty contest. There are no points for nice hair.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Because in a 4-3 he would most likely be asked to be a Right Outside Linebacker and he wouldn't have to take on near the amount of blocks that he would have to in a 3-4 as a middle backer.

That Middle spot in a 3-4 is almost like being a defensive tackle.

Parcells has been gone for a couple of years, Catch.

Really, the Mo in this defense is pretty covered up and gets to flow to the ball.

It's football. A LB has to be physical in any defense.

 

[THUMPER]

Some of y'all just have no idea how to evaluate a draft.

There is a fixed number of starters.

I see someone saying that Hatcher was not a good pick, presumably because he is not starting.

Of course, if he was starting last year, that would mean that another pick (Spears or Canty) would not have been starting. So I guess you would knock them.

Not everyone starts. Valuable depth players are in fact valuable. And certainly worthy of 3rd round picks.

Just because a player is not starting does not mean they were a waste of a pick.

That's true in general but in the specific case of Carpenter it is not. When we spend a first round pick on a guy and then go out and sign old players at the same position (Thomas & Brooking) then that tells me that he isn't starting material.

I don't have a major problem with Hatcher since he was a 3rd rounder and had quality guys starting in front of him. I do expect him to push for a starting spot this year though, not to get it but at least to push for it. He needs to do more when he does get on the field in order to justify his spot on the roster. If he can't produce more than guys like Bowen then he needs to go after this season.

Hatcher looked like he was going to be a real player 2 years ago but last year he didn't seem to do much. If he doesn't pick it this year up then he will, and should, be gone IMO.

 

[DEZBRYANT x88x]

no..


Good read huh? lol

 

[BAT]

It looks like Jerry was far from the first to describe Carp's play as "finesse". THIS was the primary reason why I hated the Carpenter pick from the very start, he was a drag down tackler AT BEST, not to mention an overrated pass rusher.

But who cares if Carp pans out or not next season, if he doesn't is anyone really surprised???? If he does, then the Cowboys have another valuable trade chip. No way he is re-signed. Nada.