CFZ Philosophical Difference Might Have Been Option Routes

[goshann]

Bad Dak is slow to make decisions on where to throw the football. Good Dak gets rid of it early and with conviction. Routes don't matter. Dak needs to stop thinking so much. Read the defense and if he doesn;t get what he wants, dump it off early to the RBs who are often wide open early. Otherwise, just find a place to throw it away. That's what Rodgers and Brady do and they seem to have a lot of success.

Lol routes don’t matter …
U think an option route may require more thinking on the qb’s part and may affect the speed at which the qb can get the ball out ?

 

[Zman5]

Maybe. The numbers come to about 50.5% run with Cooper- 143 passes to 146 runs. The Rams game Cooper only had to throw 16 passes and they ran it 34 times. If the Rams weren't incompetent in the 2nd half the numbers would likely reflect closer to what they were with Dak.

With Dak they threw it 413 to 385 runs. Still lower than 52% passing.

Probably has to do with Dak being injured and not wanting to have him go full pass mode for first few games. Based on KM's numbers in 2019 and 2021, I'd bet it would be closer to 57% had Dak not get injured.

 

[ChronicCowboy]

Riiiiight….no way they could’ve worked around that.

I have a feeling it was a disagreement regarding personnel.

 

[Haimerej]

Probably has to do with Dak being injured and not wanting to have him go full pass mode for first few games. Based on KM's numbers in 2019 and 2021, I'd bet it would be closer to 57% had Dak not get injured.

I'm guessing it had more to do with the way the games were going. The only games where they were really unbalanced in pass vs run were the GB, HOU, and WAS games- 2 losses and one that was closer than it should've been.

 

[xwalker]

I have seen this topic being bounced around on social media, that the big philosophical difference between KM and Big Mike was the option routes.

Most of Dak's actual ints (not picks where the ball hit the WR in the hands and bounced off), but actual picks were misreads on option routes. The WR reads the coverage one way and Dak reads it another way or the WR runs the route wrong by going behind the safety instead of crossing his face. Almost all of Dak's picks in the middle of the field this year were misreads on option routes, see Green Bay game as a perfect example.

The Garrett/KM offense uses a lot of option routes whereas Big Mike is more of a West Coast guy that uses very little option routes and instead focuses on short, quick passes and RAC yards. Most the routes are predetermined and dont change based on coverage, but the coverage dictates where the ball goes. Philosophically speaking, using more West Coast plays with fewer option routes seems like it would be a big benefit to Dak, especially if he and the WRs are just not reading the coverage the same.

Maybe Big Mike wanted to change the offense to use a lot fewer option routes and KM disagreed since a large portion of his playbook is based on using option routes throughout the entire route tree.

So, I dont know if I believe this 100% that this was the main area of friction between KM and Big Mike but I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys think.

It's a bigger picture issue, in my opinion.

Parcells first 2 seasons in Dallas he stayed with DC Mike Zimmer's 4-3 defense.

In the 3rd season Parcells switched to his beloved 3-4 defense.

Parcells said (paraphrasing): I'm ultimately responsible and I just feel more comfortable doing it my way.

 

[Zman5]

I'm guessing it had more to do with the way the games were going. The only games where they were really unbalanced in pass vs run were the GB, HOU, and WAS games- 2 losses and one that was closer than it should've been.

I'm sure the defense being better this year most like influenced the run/pass ratio toward the run as well.

 

[khiladi]

Yeah, the WR ran it wrong.. basically that was the excuse for Dak early in the year, Lambs fault.. but it continued with other receivers.. sure bud

 

[khiladi]

Moores choice routes were terrible. Often times the WR would go into more defensive traffic. I won't repeat the curl route nonsense. But you can just blame the QB, it's easier. But the plays where Dak didn't throw an awful ball, there's plenty of evidence illustrating the route confusion. I encourage the All 22, it's amazing what you pick up seeing the whole field.

Another example of poor coaching is that Prescott specifically ranks high in play action plays. Makes me question scheme when we played the 49ers, we didn't run a playaction play until well into the 3rd quarter.
It's been a recurring problem with OCs in Dallas going back to 2007. Abandon or completely ignore situational play success, same as the running game.

Dallas was pretty much top 5 in play action usage when Dak came and Linehan tailored the offense for his skill set.. your claims are just made the absolve the state down, mental midget at QB.

 

[khiladi]

Personally I think we need to run the ball a lot more, like 60/40 run to pass ratio.

Limit Dak to 20-25 passes a game.....................he needs to be more of a game manager than playing hero ball.

We were less than 60%, one of the top 5 in the league in terms of designed passed…. San Deigo on the other was over 60%, second worst in the league.

MOORe was hired by San Diego because he ran the ball.

 

[glimmerman]

If MM can keep it balanced. Then his WCO will be a lot like 2016. Quick easy passes that get the ball in the playmakers hands to make YAC. He can still wind up after they establish the run and play action and take deeper shots. This could be a very good thing.

 

[T-RO]

Personally I think we need to run the ball a lot more, like 60/40 run to pass ratio.

Sorry but this crazy., IMO The only two teams that did that in 2022 were the Bears and the Falcons...two terrible offenses.

And if you like that you really have no business supporting Mike McCarthy who passes more than Moore.

 

[Zekeats]

I have seen this topic being bounced around on social media, that the big philosophical difference between KM and Big Mike was the option routes.

Most of Dak's actual ints (not picks where the ball hit the WR in the hands and bounced off), but actual picks were misreads on option routes. The WR reads the coverage one way and Dak reads it another way or the WR runs the route wrong by going behind the safety instead of crossing his face. Almost all of Dak's picks in the middle of the field this year were misreads on option routes, see Green Bay game as a perfect example.

The Garrett/KM offense uses a lot of option routes whereas Big Mike is more of a West Coast guy that uses very little option routes and instead focuses on short, quick passes and RAC yards. Most the routes are predetermined and dont change based on coverage, but the coverage dictates where the ball goes. Philosophically speaking, using more West Coast plays with fewer option routes seems like it would be a big benefit to Dak, especially if he and the WRs are just not reading the coverage the same.

Maybe Big Mike wanted to change the offense to use a lot fewer option routes and KM disagreed since a large portion of his playbook is based on using option routes throughout the entire route tree.

So, I dont know if I believe this 100% that this was the main area of friction between KM and Big Mike but I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys think.

You must of missed 12 of his ints that went right to the defender

 

[jazzcat22]

McCarthy passed 58% of the time in Green Bay. Every offense has option routes, even west coast offenses. Dallas passed 51% of the time this year. If McCarthy's philosophy involves putting it in Dak's hands that much more, then next year is going to be fun, regardless of how it plays out.

I posted this in another thread.
When you haver Rodgers at QB you CAN pass it more, when you have Dak at QB, you NEED to run it more.
That 7% difference resulted in INT's for Dak.

Also what % of pass plays did they use with Dak and with Rush. Did those 5 games from him drop it to 51%.

 

[Haimerej]

I posted this in another thread.
When you haver Rodgers at QB you CAN pass it more, when you have Dak at QB, you NEED to run it more.
That 7% difference resulted in INT's for Dak.

Also what % of pass plays did they use with Dak and with Rush. Did those 5 games from him drop it to 51%.

I put the numbers for Rush up on the 2nd page. It wasn't that much different-

Maybe. The numbers come to about 50.5% run with Cooper- 143 passes to 146 runs. The Rams game Cooper only had to throw 16 passes and they ran it 34 times. If the Rams weren't incompetent in the 2nd half the numbers would likely reflect closer to what they were with Dak.

With Dak they threw it 413 to 385 runs. Still lower than 52% passing.

 

[Doomsday]

Riiiiight….no way they could’ve worked around that.

I have a feeling it was a disagreement regarding personnel.

Maybe but that would put him at odds with Jerry not big Mike

 

[jazzcat22]

I put the numbers for Rush up on the 2nd page. It wasn't that much different-

Thanks, I missed it as I just skimmed through posts at that point.

But as I said, with AR you CAN pass more, with DP you NEED to run more.

 

[CowboyFrog]

IF MM runs the same O he did in GB (I highly doubt thats will be the case) when he had a run game it was very good. When he didnt he used short passes (Like all WCO schemes) to move the LB's where he wanted them to get matchups he liked.. the diference between MM and KM will MOST LIKLEY ( not garunteed) break out this way.... KM used personel to set up weakspots that made his scheme, think basic "Ill run a deep seem with a flare and 3 curls..this should net me 8 yards as they have to move thier bubble somwhere to open a curl". MM uses Scheme to get a matchup he likes... "I'll run three zone slant and bring CD back acroos the routes to get him 1v1 with a LB on 2 yard flat, but later I'm going to send him up the 2nd seam on that same LB for a big shot. very basic but thats the diference in what they want to do.

 

[Creeper]

Lol routes don’t matter …
U think an option route may require more thinking on the qb’s part and may affect the speed at which the qb can get the ball out ?

My point was not that routes don't matter. The point was when Dak is playing poorly, routes don't matter. He just plays poorly. If routes mattered than anyone could play QB as long as they had the receivers running the right routes.

 

[RonnieT24]

My point was not that routes don't matter. The point was when Dak is playing poorly, routes don't matter. He just plays poorly. If routes mattered than anyone could play QB as long as they had the receivers running the right routes.

I don't want to call you dumb man but this is a dumb statement. Of course routes matter. Not just the routes themselves but the precision of the routes.. A 10 yard in that is rounded off is different from one that is cut sharply. It also bears stating that in modern offenses HOW the route is run is predicated on how the defense plays. If it's zone you sometimes have to round the route off so as not to get too close to the DB and give him an easy path to the ball. If it's man you have to get into the DB's body and cut sharp to create separation. If you round it off against man the DB stays in your hip pocket. You have to attack him and force him to open his hips then cut sharply to create the separation you need.

To your point about Dak playing poorly. Yes there are games where Dak plays poorly.. But there are games where his numbers look bad but he isn't the one playing poorly. The receivers dropped ten balls in the Denver game last year. TEN!! Looking at the stat sheet from that game you would say Dak sucked that day.. But did he? He hit guys in the hands time and again and they let him down. I'm not saying he was great that day.. but a lot of the offense's failure in that game was on people not named Dak. Remember the Tampa playoff game? The receivers dropped Dak's first three passes.. so he started out 0-3 and the announcers talking about how he was "struggling." But he wasn't struggling. His receivers were.. He had put the ball into their hands on three straight passes and had nothing to show for it. Football is a team game.. so usually when a team loses there's a helluva lot more than one guy to blame. Sam with wins. The simple minds keep wanting to go to one guy in both instances.. and those simple minds will always be wrong.

 

[Brooksey]

I have seen this topic being bounced around on social media, that the big philosophical difference between KM and Big Mike was the option routes.

Most of Dak's actual ints (not picks where the ball hit the WR in the hands and bounced off), but actual picks were misreads on option routes. The WR reads the coverage one way and Dak reads it another way or the WR runs the route wrong by going behind the safety instead of crossing his face. Almost all of Dak's picks in the middle of the field this year were misreads on option routes, see Green Bay game as a perfect example.

The Garrett/KM offense uses a lot of option routes whereas Big Mike is more of a West Coast guy that uses very little option routes and instead focuses on short, quick passes and RAC yards. Most the routes are predetermined and dont change based on coverage, but the coverage dictates where the ball goes. Philosophically speaking, using more West Coast plays with fewer option routes seems like it would be a big benefit to Dak, especially if he and the WRs are just not reading the coverage the same.

Maybe Big Mike wanted to change the offense to use a lot fewer option routes and KM disagreed since a large portion of his playbook is based on using option routes throughout the entire route tree.

So, I dont know if I believe this 100% that this was the main area of friction between KM and Big Mike but I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys think.

The WCO will be be easier for Dak in terms of WR's and him seeing things the same way but my concern is his short passing is not very accurate. He throws a shaky 10 yard out and he's probably the worst screen passer I've ver seen.
So yes it might be easier to read but will it be easier for Dak to execute physically? He's almost a better mid range passer than a short one.

We saw our short passing game against Wash a few weeks ago, that was ugly.