Positional value vs. ST value

[jobberone]

Follow the money.

 

[Idgit]

This was mentioned in another thread and I feel like it holds true for this team: if a player isn't a projected starter, then we are primarily concerned with how well they play special teams.

Don't get me wrong, special teams is important, but at the expense of having good depth on offense or defense?

Anyone else get this feeling? Discuss.

It's all a function of maximizing the quality snaps/game. If a player can win them on either offense or defense in the base package, it's pretty easy to get a full complement that way. If he cannot, it's going to have to come in sub packages or on Teams. The goal is to get the best possible coverage from your roster across the board. Once the starters in the base units are addressed, the issue becomes rotational snaps and special teams. The priority is-and should be-getting the best players in those situations, even if it means losing some players who might develop in the base defense. That's preferable to having developmental players on the roster who might save you a pick down the line on a developmental player for the base offense or defense, but who can't give you quality snaps on Teams.

 

[Alexander]

Yeah this seems directly related to the dixon cut. I really dont think dixon is better than heath on defense. If he is, its marginal. Heath was certainly bad as a starter last year, but he shouldnt have been a starter last year. I hope dixon makes the practice squad, but he would be just as much of a disaster if thrown into the same situation as heath was at this point.

I agree. I know that sounds like craziness defending Heath, but a safety cannot be impulsive and well, to be very blunt, stupid.

Dixon got a lot of praise after the Chargers game, but instead of building on it, it just looked like he believed he had it all figured out and he behaved like a complete imbecile. On the field and off.

 

[Derinyar]

I'm betting the difference between Heath and Dixon on defense isn't as much as some people seem to think it is, and might not even be tilted in the direction that they think it is. Just remember if you're a late round pick trying to make a team things you don't want to do is be late to practices/meetings, commit stupid penalties, and say I'm going to keep committing stupid penalties that's who I am.

In general I think you would need a pretty large gap in the ability of backups to prioritize the backup play over a player that's a core special teams player.

 

[rpntex]

This was mentioned in another thread and I feel like it holds true for this team: if a player isn't a projected starter, then we are primarily concerned with how well they play special teams.

Don't get me wrong, special teams is important, but at the expense of having good depth on offense or defense?

Anyone else get this feeling? Discuss.

Every team in the NFL has a half-dozen or so "core" special teams layers - guys who just have good instincts for the return and coverage teams, while not as strong on the defensive or offensive sides of the ball. Guys like Jeff Heath (4th or 5th safety on the roster) and Cam Lawrence (6th or 7th LB) that we are RARELY going to see on defense anyway---if at all. They are excellent ST players, however.

Some people need to stop acting like this is handicapping the defense. If Dallas ever gets to the point where they have to play the fifth safety, or the seventh linebacker, it won't matter who is on the field. Likewise, when you handicap the special-teams, you concede the field position battle. That is when you really do handicap not only the defense, but the offense as well.

 

[Pessimist_cowboy]

We've dedicated drafts (2009) to special teams . How'd that work out for us ? In fact that was probably the start of our fall . We had a pretty solid team from 2006-2010 .

 

[Toruk_Makto]

We've dedicated drafts (2009) to special teams . How'd that work out for us ? In fact that was probably the start of our fall . We had a pretty solid team from 2006-2010 .

Drafts is plural but you only listed 2009...singular.

Care to elaborate which other draft(s) were dedicated to special teams?

Also the 2009 draft is widely considered one of the worst drafts in the last decade...all around the league. But you knew that. Right?

 

[Pessimist_cowboy]

Drafts is plural but you only listed 2009...singular.

Care to elaborate which other draft(s) were dedicated to special teams?

Also the 2009 draft is widely considered one of the worst drafts in the last decade...all around the league. But you knew that. Right?

There was numerous interviews where Jerry Jones stated that 2009 was specifically a special teams draft. Pretty bad if you ask me.

 

[morasp]

I completely disagree. This was the D Line in 1992, something that could never happen on a salary cap era team:


Defensive Linemen

• 75 Tony Casillas DT
• 94 Charles Haley DE
• 95 Chad Hennings DT/DE
• 90 Tony Hill DE
• 77 Jim Jeffcoat DE
• 97 Jimmie Jones DT
• 78 Leon Lett DT/DE
• 67 Russell Maryland DT
• 92 Tony Tolbert DE

Good point.

 

[morasp]

Kind of interesting, I just read that Earl Thomas will be returning punts for the Seahawks.

• By Chris Wesseling

• Around the NFL Writer

• Published: Sept. 1, 2014 at 04:02 p.m.

• Updated: Sept. 2, 2014 at 03:39 a.m.

• 

The best player on the Seattle Seahawks' historically great defense is going to moonlight on special teams this season.

Coach Pete Carroll confirmed Monday that All-Pro safety Earl Thomas will indeed be the team's primary punt returner entering the season.

We suspected a month ago that Carroll was merely throwing Thomas a bone by allowing him to return a few kicks in preseason action. Instead, the Seahawks are holding firm to their competition mantra despite the injury risk to one of the most valuable players in the league.

Thomas has yet to return a regular-season punt in four years with the Seahawks. He returned four punts for 58 yards in his two-year college career at Texas

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000386707/article/earl-thomas-wins-seahawks-punt-returner-job

 

[John813]

Call me crazy but I don't see Heath as just a ST player, long term.
He struggled and looked bad at times last year, but, I believe that was just due to being thrown into the fire way too soon for such a raw player.
From the games I remember, he was usually in the right place but failed to capitalize on making plays.
I guess the coaches think they can keep on working on his technique, and in the mean time he can contribute on ST.

 

[jterrell]

OP: yes this is how you build football teams in every city.
Special teams count and you have to play them so you do need bodies for it.
They don't supercede your need for starters or key back ups but they are mandatory thus have value EACH game.

Bill Parcells talked about how you handle this a lot. About how many plays a guy had to give you to get on the bus.

So yes this is a piece of the puzzle and it does matter.
Young non-elite level guys better be able to help on special teams.
Moose was a great special teamer.
Whatever FB we have now MUST be. Because the FB won't get enough plays to justify carrying one for just his limited offensive set snaps.
The back up LBs MUST play special teams.

Every time you make an exception and you do at times, someone else must pick up the slack somewhere.
If you aren't good enough to start, you better fill a vital role if you can not help on special teams.

 

[jterrell]

Call me crazy but I don't see Heath as just a ST player, long term.
He struggled and looked bad at times last year, but, I believe that was just due to being thrown into the fire way too soon for such a raw player.
From the games I remember, he was usually in the right place but failed to capitalize on making plays.
I guess the coaches think they can keep on working on his technique, and in the mean time he can contribute on ST.

This is exactly how you should develop. See Miles Austin.
Guys earn roster spots based on immediate help and value on ST while getting the reps they need to develop.
I like Ahmad Dixon more than Jeff Heath but the gap isn't enough for me to overlook special teams play that helps me win right now.
The practice squad is for just that; guys that aren't going to play only practice.
So you better be able to play while you develop if you want a very rare and coveted active NFL roster spot.

 

[DFWJC]

Special Teams are a HUGE part of the game, folks.

Of course, I'd prefer to have the better position player and have that guy by in to playing special teams at 100%, but it doesn't always work that way.

I do have a question though.
How often have cut a young player who wasn't known as a good special teams player, and then that player end up being very good for some other team?
1 out of 100?
1 out of 300?
ever in the last 10 years?

Honest question

 

[Idgit]

Kind of interesting, I just read that Earl Thomas will be returning punts for the Seahawks.

• By Chris Wesseling

• Around the NFL Writer

• Published: Sept. 1, 2014 at 04:02 p.m.

• Updated: Sept. 2, 2014 at 03:39 a.m.

• 

The best player on the Seattle Seahawks' historically great defense is going to moonlight on special teams this season.

Coach Pete Carroll confirmed Monday that All-Pro safety Earl Thomas will indeed be the team's primary punt returner entering the season.

We suspected a month ago that Carroll was merely throwing Thomas a bone by allowing him to return a few kicks in preseason action. Instead, the Seahawks are holding firm to their competition mantra despite the injury risk to one of the most valuable players in the league.

Thomas has yet to return a regular-season punt in four years with the Seahawks. He returned four punts for 58 yards in his two-year college career at Texas

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000386707/article/earl-thomas-wins-seahawks-punt-returner-job

Can't decide if I like this, or just think it's insane. It's bold. It's too risky. But for a team coming off a Superbowl win, it's kind of a great way to make your point that you're going all out to win football games still at any cost.
I think I just decided: for the Seahawks, this is a really interesting coaching move. For almost any other team (I'd make a possible exception for the 49ers, who I think need a kick in the pants after being so close for too long), it'd be a disaster.

 

[morasp]

Can't decide if I like this, or just think it's insane. It's bold. It's too risky. But for a team coming off a Superbowl win, it's kind of a great way to make your point that you're going all out to win football games still at any cost.
I think I just decided: for the Seahawks, this is a really interesting coaching move. For almost any other team (I'd make a possible exception for the 49ers, who I think need a kick in the pants after being so close for too long), it'd be a disaster.

It would be a shame if he gets injured. He's such a big piece of their defense. That hit Harris took kind of puts it in perspective.

 

[Idgit]

It would be a shame if he gets injured. He's such a big piece of their defense. That hit Harris took kind of puts it in perspective.

Oh, he's gonna get jacked at some point. But even if he gets a significant injury, it's something a coach can point to and say 'we're still going all out to win,' and mean it. From a mindset perspective, in terms of focussing the team, that's pretty effective. And given the challenges of repeating after a season like they had last year, I can see it working out for him.

He can also always switch up the returner in a game or four, once the point's been made.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

There was numerous interviews where Jerry Jones stated that 2009 was specifically a special teams draft. Pretty bad if you ask me.

I fully acknowledge that. But he used plural. As if that was a regular occurrence.

It's highly plausible that the scouts looked at that draft (a historically bleak one) and realized that they'd likely only come away with backups.

Remember special teams in our lexicon means you're not expected to start but you will contribute on teams.

It was a bad draft for us though no doubt. I just think people read too much into it especially considering our recent positive drafts.

 

[Plankton]

I fully acknowledge that. But he used plural. As if that was a regular occurrence.

It's highly plausible that the scouts looked at that draft (a historically bleak one) and realized that they'd likely only come away with backups.

Remember special teams in our lexicon means you're not expected to start but you will contribute on teams.

It was a bad draft for us though no doubt. I just think people read too much into it especially considering our recent positive drafts.

The 1995 draft was a special teams and backup player draft. Straight from the mouth of Jerry Jones.

So, yes, he has done this more than once.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

The 1995 draft was a special teams and backup player draft. Straight from the mouth of Jerry Jones.

So, yes, he has done this more than once.

Would love to see this quote.

Still you're talking 2 times in 20 years. Both times with veteran teams that were expected to contend for a superbowl.

Looks like people are not being very nuanced.