Positional value vs. ST value

[jterrell]

The 1995 draft was a special teams and backup player draft. Straight from the mouth of Jerry Jones.

So, yes, he has done this more than once.

I think Lacewell is the worst football adviser known to man and he created this drafting for back ups and special teamers concept but let's also take a second to acknowledge the obvious.
In 1995 the Cowboys had the most talent in football and more talent than basically any team has since then.
Both Jerry and Lacewell have acknowledged since that was a mistake.

The argument Sturm posits about Hitchens is just plain false.
Dallas did not draft Hitchens to be a back up and special teamer.
They drafted him because they needed a MLB and they like that he can play special teams.
No LB they picked would have been targeted to walk in and start.
Like HITCHENS they might have gotten that shot but you don't draft a guy in round 4 and expect that.

The player Sturm wanted instead, Prince Shembo... is a back up LB in Atlanta....

As we discuss in the thread about roster make up you actually need your backup LB to play ST; lest they often do not make the roster at all.

 

[Plankton]

Would love to see this quote.

Still you're talking 2 times in 20 years. Both times with veteran teams that were expected to contend for a superbowl.

Looks like people are not being very nuanced.

Working on the quote.

What nuance is needed for pointing out a team that has had two drafts in a 15 year span that went in with a strategy of drafting special teamers and backups?

Whether the team was expected to compete for a Super Bowl berth has nothing to do with it being a flawed strategy. The goal should be to add the best talent possible to improve the team. With the salary cap being a very real issue to deal with, drafting talented rookies to compete for starting roles is the best way to attain cost certainty, and ultimately, manage the cap well.

When rookies are drafted, the bare minimum expectation should be that they contribute on special teams. The goal should be competition for starting roles, and developing raw talent into more prominent contributions. Making selections specifically with special teams in mind at the expense of other longer term contributions is a recipe for throwing a draft class away.

Like the Cowboys did in 1995 and 2009.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Working on the quote.

What nuance is needed for pointing out a team that has had two drafts in a 15 year span that went in with a strategy of drafting special teamers and backups?

Whether the team was expected to compete for a Super Bowl berth has nothing to do with it being a flawed strategy. The goal should be to add the best talent possible to improve the team. With the salary cap being a very real issue to deal with, drafting talented rookies to compete for starting roles is the best way to attain cost certainty, and ultimately, manage the cap well.

When rookies are drafted, the bare minimum expectation should be that they contribute on special teams. The goal should be competition for starting roles, and developing raw talent into more prominent contributions. Making selections specifically with special teams in mind at the expense of other longer term contributions is a recipe for throwing a draft class away.

Like the Cowboys did in 1995 and 2009.

I think you're looking at it wrong. When I hear "special teams draft" I hear a team that is set at most positions and doesn't expect to walk away with a lot of immediate starters.

It's semantics. Both times you allege this happened... Again twice in 20 years we were expected to be contenders.

I very much doubt the team didn't put a board together and just drafted gunners and return men.

I look forward to your quotes.

 

[Plankton]

I think you're looking at it wrong. When I hear "special teams draft" I hear a team that is set at most positions and doesn't expect to walk away with a lot of immediate starters.

It's semantics. Both times you allege this happened... Again twice in 20 years we were expected to be contenders.

I very much doubt the team didn't put a board together and just drafted gunners and return men.

I look forward to your quotes.

This was the closest that I could find to attribution from Jones. What I do recall, and cannot find online, was an on-camera interview with Chris Myers during the 1995 draft, where he indicated that the Cowboys were looking for backups and special teamers, as he felt that his team was full of established starters that a rookie or rookies couldn't beat out.

The plan, as with all recent Cowboy plans, was dictated by the salary cap. The organization, says Jones, wanted to come away with players who could "play on special teams and fit into
favorable salary slots in their second, third and fourth years while we groom them."

[url]http://www.si.com/vault/1995/06/19/204043/now-its-my-team-barry-switzer-hopes-his-new-fire-can-offset-the-cowboys-loss-of-talent-as-he-tries-to-keep-up-with-the-49ers[/URL]

This was the strategy going in, despite having Kevin Williams as the presumed #2 WR, a seriously injured Erik Williams coming off of a near fatal accident, where they couldn't have known in April of 1995 how well he would be able to play, having Shante Carver as the third DE (more important after Jim Jeffcoat left for the Bills in FA), after a rookie season where he was inactive for the final six games of the season, with Darrin Smith holding out (and he wouldn't sign until after the sixth game of the season), and Robert Jones as a shaky middle linebacker - these were all positions that the Cowboys could have drafted people to play immediately (Derrick Brooks was available at their first round slot, and they traded out of it, Frank Sanders was available in the second round when they selected Sherman Williams), but they chose not to because they didn't believe that these guys could compete? They believed that selecting a backup RB with their first pick was a more sound strategy than selecting a Brooks, for example, especially after losing Mark Stepnoski, Jeffcoat, James Washington, Alvin Harper and Derek Kennard (he was resigned later in the season after Ray Donaldson broke his leg) in free agency?

Here's an article reflecting on the failed strategy from 1998. It references the crux of the issue - that the draft was not entered into looking for starters or anyone who would compete for playing time on day one for the offense or defense:

[url]http://amarillo.com/stories/072698/spo_UK4391.shtml[/URL]

It's not what I had hoped to find, but I believe that it was the strategy. Not gunners and return men, per say, but guys who would not threaten starters, and whose best qualities were their price tags, not their ability.

 

[Zman5]

Can't decide if I like this, or just think it's insane. It's bold. It's too risky. But for a team coming off a Superbowl win, it's kind of a great way to make your point that you're going all out to win football games still at any cost.
I think I just decided: for the Seahawks, this is a really interesting coaching move. For almost any other team (I'd make a possible exception for the 49ers, who I think need a kick in the pants after being so close for too long), it'd be a disaster.

Deion and Woody all played ST while being superstar starters. Nothing new.

 

[Idgit]

Deion and Woody all played ST while being superstar starters. Nothing new.

Deion was used situationally, and Woody wasn't returning punts.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

This was the closest that I could find to attribution from Jones. What I do recall, and cannot find online, was an on-camera interview with Chris Myers during the 1995 draft, where he indicated that the Cowboys were looking for backups and special teamers, as he felt that his team was full of established starters that a rookie or rookies couldn't beat out.

The plan, as with all recent Cowboy plans, was dictated by the salary cap. The organization, says Jones, wanted to come away with players who could "play on special teams and fit into
favorable salary slots in their second, third and fourth years while we groom them."

http://www.si.com/vault/1995/06/19/...-talent-as-he-tries-to-keep-up-with-the-49ers
This was the strategy going in, despite having Kevin Williams as the presumed #2 WR, a seriously injured Erik Williams coming off of a near fatal accident, where they couldn't have known in April of 1995 how well he would be able to play, having Shante Carver as the third DE (more important after Jim Jeffcoat left for the Bills in FA), after a rookie season where he was inactive for the final six games of the season, with Darrin Smith holding out (and he wouldn't sign until after the sixth game of the season), and Robert Jones as a shaky middle linebacker - these were all positions that the Cowboys could have drafted people to play immediately (Derrick Brooks was available at their first round slot, and they traded out of it, Frank Sanders was available in the second round when they selected Sherman Williams), but they chose not to because they didn't believe that these guys could compete? They believed that selecting a backup RB with their first pick was a more sound strategy than selecting a Brooks, for example, especially after losing Mark Stepnoski, Jeffcoat, James Washington, Alvin Harper and Derek Kennard (he was resigned later in the season after Ray Donaldson broke his leg) in free agency?

Here's an article reflecting on the failed strategy from 1998. It references the crux of the issue - that the draft was not entered into looking for starters or anyone who would compete for playing time on day one for the offense or defense:

http://amarillo.com/stories/072698/spo_UK4391.shtml

It's not what I had hoped to find, but I believe that it was the strategy. Not gunners and return men, per say, but guys who would not threaten starters, and whose best qualities were their price tags, not their ability.

Thanks. Interesting reads.

Like I always wish....it'd be nice to have the inside baseball of draft boards. But alas. Just a dream.

 

[Zman5]

Deion was used situationally, and Woody wasn't returning punts.

Deion was returning punts full time until he started to play both WR and CB. Woody wasn't returning punts but on the punt return unit. Point being he played on the ST full time while being a superstar type of player and not some backup DB.