Pre-season Scattershooting

[Idgit]

...At WR guys literally do not get open. It was an issue for TWill a lot last year and Street has never really gotten open. You'd expect a guy like Street to come in and be option one in the passing game this pre-season. 2nd year, former draft pick. But he has 3 catches this pre-season and had 2 all last year. Escobar and Swain have been by far our biggest pass catching targets. That's not a good sign for WR depth.

I'm with you, generally, in this thread, but I like Street more than you seem to. He's not a guy who has the speed to run himself open or the strength to make room for himself when the ball arrives, but he's a smart player who makes the right adjustments and who will come down with the ball. He's open when he doesn't look open, and I think it takes QBs time to trust that he'll make the right adjustment and come down with the ball. I don't know how effective he's going to end up if he had to step into that WR2 spot, but as a WR4 or WR5, he's a pretty good player.

 

[windjc]

I'm one who thinks the Vaughan criticism from last night was overblown, too. But maybe I'm just not seeing it. What about his mechanics are you seeing that was awful?

And his decision making on the two picks, at least, wasn't wrong at all. He had guys on both plays. With the pressure he was getting on the pick-6, he went right to the open guy. He had the ball too low, but the decision wasn't bad. Neither was it the wrong read on the second pick, I don't think. He just didn't place the ball exactly, and the defender made a very nice play on it in the air.

For Vaughan, his questions aren't with his arm or his ability to take a hit. He needs things to slow down. And he needs to prove that he can make decisions under pressure faster than he did last night. But the guy has the build and the smarts and the arm and the will to take a hit. He's actually got a lot going for him. If he weren't targeting the right players under pressure, I'd have more issues with him than I do with him not doing it quite fast enough.

I politely disagree. Vaughn's passes tend to sail high. They tend to not be tight spirals. He is inaccurate in general. Vaughn lacks poise - one of the most important indicators of a QBs prospects. Compared to Showers, who has poise and mobility, a tighter spiral and a stronger arm, I don't know why people think Vaughn should stick around. If anything, we should look at Showers and say that his mistakes - his two interceptions - were based on inexperience. On both occasions, he underestimated the ability of defenders to react at this level when he looked down his receiver. This is a much easier thing to grow out of and a mistake made by almost all QBs at some point.

 

[VACowboy]

I'm with you, generally, in this thread, but I like Street more than you seem to. He's not a guy who has the speed to run himself open or the strength to make room for himself when the ball arrives, but he's a smart player who makes the right adjustments and who will come down with the ball. He's open when he doesn't look open, and I think it takes QBs time to trust that he'll make the right adjustment and come down with the ball. I don't know how effective he's going to end up if he had to step into that WR2 spot, but as a WR4 or WR5, he's a pretty good player.

Street is a great route-runner and has good hands. He'll be good at beating single coverage if he gets a chance to play.

 

[gimmesix]

At RB we have guys who have proven they can play. As much as the fan base pretends all these guys fell off a turnip truck they have NFL skins on the wall.
McFadden has averaged over 5.0 yards per carry twice. Randle did it last year. Dunbar has shown elite quickness on little screens and passes to the flats. All 3 know how to block.

At WR guys literally do not get open. It was an issue for TWill a lot last year and Street has never really gotten open. You'd expect a guy like Street to come in and be option one in the passing game this pre-season. 2nd year, former draft pick. But he has 3 catches this pre-season and had 2 all last year. Escobar and Swain have been by far our biggest pass catching targets. That's not a good sign for WR depth.

Your definition of "proven" and mine definitely differ.

 

[hornitosmonster]

just be healthy going into the season and we will be ok

 

[BAT]

No love for A.J. Jenkins? He seemed to be the only receiver who could consistently gain separation and would have better RAC if the QB actually led him. As for the QBs, would not carry 4, at least not 4 currently on the roster. Romo is a lock of course, but Weeden is not a 2nd string QB. Cannot win games with a guy who plays not to screw up. Never mind not to lose, he just does not want to screw up. And he is so immobile that when the opposing pass rushers lock in on him, they just blow him up to smithereens.

Vaughn has the tools, but he needs more time to learn to control his emotions. Kid is so up and down. Showers is the most poised of the backups and has the most potential to make a play with his feet or his arm. Would be pretty good in a read option offense until he figures out the pro game, and he's not that far away. Love his toughness and athleticism, he needs to be on the 53. The other 2, not so much. Cowboys need a QB that can win at least 50% of the games should Romo go down. That is not Weeden or Vaughn.

 

[Idgit]

I politely disagree. Vaughn's passes tend to sail high. They tend to not be tight spirals. He is inaccurate in general. Vaughn lacks poise - one of the most important indicators of a QBs prospects. Compared to Showers, who has poise and mobility, a tighter spiral and a stronger arm, I don't know why people think Vaughn should stick around. If anything, we should look at Showers and say that his mistakes - his two interceptions - were based on inexperience. On both occasions, he underestimated the ability of defenders to react at this level when he looked down his receiver. This is a much easier thing to grow out of and a mistake made by almost all QBs at some point.

Well, I'll withhold further comment until I re-watch the game, anyway. I don't necessarily think either of these guys is special, but Vaughan does look prototypically right to me across the board. My biggest questions on him are his ability to make the right reads, fast enough. And then mostly it's with the 'fast enough' part, but that's huge.

Showers makes plays when things break down and he's on the move to the sideline. He's got a ton of athleticism, but he's the one who looks to be doing things with his ability more than with his mechanics or his progressions to me. That's fine if that buys you time to get better at the other, but it says to me he's not as far along the curve with the things that are most important to a QB. I'd rather have a guy who can make all the throws and make the right reads, but just not fast enough under pressure and hope he can get faster or that playing with better options and better protection helps him out.

 

[bodi]

believe we have very few WRs on this team who can get open and also catch the football. Dez, Bease, TWill, Witten, Escobar. Dead stop. David Porter seemed to blow minds because he actually got open and caught the ball. Our bar at WR is really low.

Harwell

Our return game can not rely on Lucky Whitehead. - I liked what Hill did back there

I'm one who thinks the Vaughan criticism from last night was overblown - NOPE

 

[Idgit]

...I'm one who thinks the Vaughan criticism from last night was overblown - NOPE

Well, this changes everything. I take back what I said before.

 

[gimmesix]

No love for A.J. Jenkins? He seemed to be the only receiver who could consistently gain separation and would have better RAC if the QB actually led him. As for the QBs, would not carry 4, at least not 4 currently on the roster. Romo is a lock of course, but Weeden is not a 2nd string QB. Cannot win games with a guy who plays not to screw up. Never mind not to lose, he just does not want to screw up. And he is so immobile that when the opposing pass rushers lock in on him, they just blow him up to smithereens.

Vaughn has the tools, but he needs more time to learn to control his emotions. Kid is so up and down. Showers is the most poised of the backups and has the most potential to make a play with his feet or his arm. Would be pretty good in a read option offense until he figures out the pro game, and he's not that far away. Love his toughness and athleticism, he needs to be on the 53. The other 2, not so much. Cowboys need a QB that can win at least 50% of the games should Romo go down. That is not Weeden or Vaughn.

At this point, I think we could get either Vaughan or Showers on the practice squad, and possibly both if we want them. Last year, we kept Vaughan because he showed enough that there was a risk we could lose him before really getting a chance to see what he's made of. Right now, I still think he's worth trying to develop, but I don't think there is the same risk of losing him at this point. But we'll see ... he had one bad game last year, too.

 

[Idgit]

At this point, I think we could get either Vaughan or Showers on the practice squad, and possibly both if we want them. Last year, we kept Vaughan because he showed enough that there was a risk we could lose him before really getting a chance to see what he's made of. Right now, I still think he's worth trying to develop, but I don't think there is the same risk of losing him at this point. But we'll see ... he had one bad game last year, too.

He had a good game in SD, though.

If we think he can develop into a starter, we need to keep him. It's too important a position and just not worth the risk. I agree, though, that he's very borderline in terms of whether or not they've seen enough there to develop. Honestly, though, if they think they have anything there, I'd be considering letting him take the second half of next week's game, all of game four, and give him all the reps on Tony's Wed rest days this season to see where we can get him. Weeden's a better player than he is right now, but those reps are valuable to waste on an old player when we're in the market for a future starter to groom.

 

[windjc]

No, it didn't.
He fumbled twice by NFL stats. One he recovered himself. The other was a turnover.
Point remains. Feel free to get excited and believe in him though.
Just don't be shocked when he next fumbles.

He fumbled once.

 

[jterrell]

I agree with a lot of this. However you are a Vaughn apologist. Vaughn had a year to watch tape of defenses and study them and prepare for them. Saying he was surprised is not an excuse. His mechanics and decision making were terrible.

Whitehead looks fine on returns to me.

Actually I am not.
I am keeping 3 QBs for sure, outside that I don't really care.
If we move on from Vaughn I am adding someone else.
But I'd keep the kid based on what I've seen thus far unless someone better comes along.

I have zero hope the Romo-replacement is on this roster but I don't know one of those comes along more than once every 2 or 3 drafts.

 

[windjc]

No, he didn't. He fumbled twice. Stats aren't hard, try google.
It is an official stat.

Good talk.

Did you watch the San Diego game?????????????????????????

Harwell fumbled the second time. The NFL stat sheet is WRONG. Good grief man.

 

[windjc]

Actually I am not.
I am keeping 3 QBs for sure, outside that I don't really care.
If we move on from Vaughn I am adding someone else.
But I'd keep the kid based on what I've seen thus far unless someone better comes along.

I have zero hope the Romo-replacement is on this roster but I don't know one of those comes along more than once every 2 or 3 drafts.

Well since you don't actually watch the games, it's not surprise that you haven't seen the upside of Showers compared to Vaughn. But it doesnt really matter for you who they keep or not, since you won't be watching the games.

Good talk.

 

[gimmesix]

He had a good game in SD, though.

If we think he can develop into a starter, we need to keep him. It's too important a position and just not worth the risk. I agree, though, that he's very borderline in terms of whether or not they've seen enough there to develop. Honestly, though, if they think they have anything there, I'd be considering letting him take the second half of next week's game, all of game four, and give him all the reps on Tony's Wed rest days this season to see where we can get him. Weeden's a better player than he is right now, but those reps are valuable to waste on an old player when we're in the market for a future starter to groom.

I don't know. The cut to 53 is always about figuring out what risks to take on who you can get to the practice squad. I think last year Dallas didn't feel like it could risk Vaughan. At this point this preseason, I believe the Cowboys would feel they could take that risk. Now, that could change over the next two preseason games as the bottom of the roster settles. Vaughan might become more of a risk than some of the others fighting for those final few spots.

 

[Idgit]

I don't know. The cut to 53 is always about figuring out what risks to take on who you can get to the practice squad. I think last year Dallas didn't feel like it could risk Vaughan. At this point this preseason, I believe the Cowboys would feel they could take that risk. Now, that could change over the next two preseason games as the bottom of the roster settles. Vaughan might become more of a risk than some of the others fighting for those final few spots.

He's got plenty of snaps to go, so there's no way of ever knowing. I'm not sure he's shown enough again, anyway. I didn't think he had last year, so what do I know.

I'm just saying if I have even a QB 10% shot of the future, I'm not exposing him in order to keep Weeden on the roster another year. I"m throwing reps at him and, if I really need that roster spot, going without a QB2 in the hopes I can get my developmental guy up to the Weeden-level if I really need him. Because I don't think Weeden is a fit as a starter down the road because of his age, and with Tony's age and injuries, we need to be developing replacements now.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

I actually think Street, Harwell and Jenkins can all get open. The problem is that Harwell and Jenkins don't really stand a chance because they aren't considered core special teamers, which our 5th WR has to be. It doubly hurts that they aren't really return options. I was hoping Goodley might compete with Whitehead but so far I don't think he has done anything of note. Of our RB's, folks might not like to hear it but Gus Johnson might be the best runner of the group. Watch how he goes with the OL and then bursts through the first crease he sees. It's different than any of the other runners on this team.

There are several NFL teams that have RB's in 4th place or deeper in the depth chart that are good fits for a zone offense. San Fran has some guys that would be interesting. Carolina does too.

I am one that wouldn't mind if Dunbar was replaced by a vet because he really doesn't do much of anything that can't be handled by McFadden or Randle.

 

[gimmesix]

He's got plenty of snaps to go, so there's no way of ever knowing. I'm not sure he's shown enough again, anyway. I didn't think he had last year, so what do I know.

I'm just saying if I have even a QB 10% shot of the future, I'm not exposing him in order to keep Weeden on the roster another year. I"m throwing reps at him and, if I really need that roster spot, going without a QB2 in the hopes I can get my developmental guy up to the Weeden-level if I really need him. Because I don't think Weeden is a fit as a starter down the road because of his age, and with Tony's age and injuries, we need to be developing replacements now.

Well, I wanted to cut Weeden last year and make Vaughan the primary backup, so you can see where I stand. My reasoning for that was that we weren't likely to win with Weeden, so if we're likely to lose anyway, why not give Vaughan a chance to see if he can show anything.

I feel essentially the same way this year, except that I did think Vaughan showed enough that Dallas would be taking a risk by cutting him thrn, while I don't feel they would be if he plays like he did against San Francisco in these last two games.

If we're going to keep Weeden again, I'd rather use the extra spot elsewhere and give Vaughan one more year of seasoning, but on the PS this time. Of course, it he steps up his play again, then I'll be saying keep him on the 53,

Sunday, he wasn't even the best Dallas backup QB on the field and he has to be that for me to think Dallas should keep him.

 

[DFWJC]

He fumbled once.

Not for me but I just wanted to ask; do mean fumbled once in one game?
Whitehead has fumbled twice so far in the preseason....losing one.