Pro Football Talk... Bush story, USC related

Reality

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BigWillie said:
Think about what you are saying. If a player is enligible, that means his athletic scholarship is null and void, meaning he isn't even apart of the college or any university. The Heisman Trophy isn't awarded to any Joe Schmo off the street.

Explain to me how you are understanding that a non-college athlete can win a collegiate award?
Actually, what he is saying is that Reggie Bush DID play the entire 2005 season and while the NCAA may go back and disqualify his participation, the fact that he physically played in the games can never be taken away because it already happened. (Disclaimer: This is assuming time travel never becomes possible)

Since the Heisman Trophy (like most other awards) are not controlled or handled by the NCAA, it would be up to the controlling body for that award to decide what action, if any, to take.

Meaning, even if the NCAA disqualifies Reggie Bush for the entire 2005 season, I doubt very seriously the Heisman Trophy will be taken away from him because at this point, it really won't matter to anyone except Vince Young who will always know he only won the award because the better player's family caused him to be disqualified.

-Reality
 

Reality

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One thing I would like to point out also is that unless the NCAA can prove that Reggie Bush had an agreement in place with the owner of the house or the marketing agent, there is nothing the NCAA can do to him. Just because his family accepted a rent-free house is not something for which the NCAA can penalize Reggie Bush. The NCAA will have to in some way tie the house to Reggie Bush or provide evidence of agreements made between Reggie Bush and the owner of the house or the marketing agent in order consider disqualifying him.

At this point, unless there are signed documents, Reggie Bush can simply say he never promised anything to anyone and anything that his family received was between his family and whoever provided it to them.

-Reality
 

Qwickdraw

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Yahoo! Sports report: Reggie Bush's family home

By Charles Robinson, Yahoo! Sports
April 23, 2006




SPRING VALLEY, Calif. – In this sprawling hilltop community with a breathtaking view of Sweetwater Lake, it was no secret who lived in the 3,000-square-foot house at the corner of Apple Street and Luther Avenue.

That home, residents would tell you, was where Reggie Bush's family lived.

That is, until this weekend, when the family abruptly packed up and vacated the residence – less than 24 hours after Yahoo! Sports approached Bush's mother about information linking the property to Michael Michaels, a man who is alleged to have tried to play a role in steering Bush toward an agent and who also has ties to a sports marketing company.

Days before Bush is expected to be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft, unanswered questions about the residence and how his mother, stepfather and brother came to live in it within the last year have prompted the University of Southern California to refer the matter to the Pacific-10 Conference for an investigation.

NCAA statutes prohibit student-athletes or their families from receiving extra benefits from professional sports agents, marketing companies or their representatives. A breach of these statutes could result in an athlete being ruled ineligible, and games in which they played could be forfeited.

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USC finished 12-1 last season, its 35-game winning streak and national championship bid both ending with a loss in the Rose Bowl to Texas. Bush, a junior running back, won the Heisman Trophy and elected to skip his senior season and turn pro in January.

In response to reporters' questions about the matter late last week, USC athletic department officials said they would look into it.

"Rather than jumping to conclusions, we need to determine the facts before commenting on this report," Trojans athletic director Mike Garrett said in a statement released by the school on Friday. "We have asked the Pac-10 to look into this."

State records show the Apple Street home was built in late 2004 and early 2005, then purchased by Michaels on March 29, 2005 for $757,500. Around that time, neighbors say Bush's family moved in. Whether they had visited the house while it was being built is unknown, but there is an inscription in one of the cement slabs in the driveway reading "The Griffins '05."

Michaels is the only person who has been listed on the deed to the home.

Bush's mother, Denise Griffin, was approached in the driveway of the house on Thursday, but declined to comment.

"I have absolutely nothing to say," Griffin said when asked about ownership of the property, which is where Bush's mother, stepfather LaMar and brother Jovan lived during USC's 2005 season.

Before moving to the house on Apple Lane, Bush's family was listed as living in an apartment elsewhere in Spring Valley, a community located about 13 miles east of San Diego.

At some point after Bush's family moved into the residence, Michaels and an associate named Lloyd Lake are said to have contacted San Diego-based sports agent David Caravantes and offered to facilitate Bush's recruitment. A source with intimate knowledge of the meeting said it took place during the 2005 college football season and that Michaels was looking for a local agent to handle the contract negotiations for players he intended to sign to his marketing firm.

Michaels and Lake told Caravantes they were planning to start a sports marketing agency with Bush as their anchor client. It was also during this meeting that Michaels and Lake mentioned the potential name of the agency: New Era Sports & Entertainment.

The pitch to Caravantes was said to have been simple: He would be Bush's agent and Michaels' marketing creation would handle the promotion of the USC star. At some point after pitching this idea, Michaels informed Caravantes that Bush's family was living in a home Michaels owned. Caravantes isn't believed to have met with Bush and was never considered to be in the mix before the USC star hired Reebok adviser Mike Ornstein and agent Joel Segal of Worldwide Football Inc. as his representatives.

Repeated attempts to reach Segal and Bush were unsuccessful.

While it's unclear what official role Michaels played in New Era Sports, indications are that the company barely got off the ground – if at all. According to corporation filings in California, paperwork for New Era Sports & Entertainment was drawn up on Nov. 23, 2005, and records list the business address in Los Angeles under an attorney named Phillip M. Smith Jr.

Contacted late last week, Smith Jr. refused to talk about New Era Sports – even declining to give public details such as a phone number for the company, where the New Era offices were located or who was serving as the company's current president or manager.

Asked why he wouldn't provide such information, Smith ended the brief telephone conversation, saying, "That's really not an issue that I want to deal with." He has failed to return multiple follow-up messages left at his office.

Further attempts to identify New Era produced a single web page with a company logo (http://newerasports.tv/) that contains no active links to indicate where New Era is located, what services are provided or how the company could be contacted. Searches also produced the internet blogs of three self-proclaimed employees of New Era Sports. One such blog included the company logo of New Era and pictures of several NFL players. That blog was taken down shortly after Yahoo! Sports obtained a hard-copy of the page.

Contacted about his alleged meeting with Michaels, Caravantes declined to comment.

Michaels – who is a member of the Sycuan Indian Tribe and works as a business development officer for the tribe's development corporation – failed to return multiple phone calls and was unavailable when Yahoo! Sports visited his home on three occasions this weekend.

The Sycuan tribe, which owns a casino and resort and is engaged in a number of business enterprises in the San Diego area, denied any knowledge of Michaels' relationship with the Bush family.

"The tribe is not aware of his involvement," said spokesman Adam Day, who had been approved to speak for the Sycuan's tribal government. "Any involvement that he has in this situation is his personal involvement. It has no connection or correlation to the tribe, its businesses or Mike's employment by the tribal development corporation.

"What tribal members do on their own time is their own business. It's not the business of the tribe."

Back at the house on Apple Street on Saturday afternoon, the moving trucks had come and gone. A flier offering cleaning services for movers was hung on the front door, and all the shades had been drawn shut. Through a garage window, only a few empty cardboard boxes and straggling trinkets were visible.

Across the street, neighbor Grant Sitton could only shrug.

"I don't know, I guess it didn't work out," Sitton said. "Oh well. They have a big payday coming next week anyway."


Charles Robinson is the national NFL writer for Yahoo! Sports. Send him a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_y...c5nYcB?slug=cr-bush042306&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
 

theogt

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BigWillie said:
Think about what you are saying. If a player is enligible, that means his athletic scholarship is null and void, meaning he isn't even apart of the college or any university. The Heisman Trophy isn't awarded to any Joe Schmo off the street.

Explain to me how you are understanding that a non-college athlete can win a collegiate award?
I'm not sure I can explain this any clearer. The Heisman is not associated with the NCAA. If I give you an award for being the best poster on CZ and CZ revokes your membership, I don't have to take your award away.
 

BigWillie

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theogt said:
I'm not sure I can explain this any clearer. The Heisman is not associated with the NCAA. If I give you an award for being the best poster on CZ and CZ revokes your membership, I don't have to take your award away.

You are making nothing clear, however Reality cleaned it up for you.

If you decide to not take the award away from Reggie, it opens up a can of worms about the legitimacy of the award.

But however, you have to be an NCAA athlete to be deemed eligible for the award. Seeing as how Reggie will be deemed a non-NCAA student (if the allegations are true), he will not be eligible for the award.

A quote from the Heisman.com site ...

http://www.heisman.com/history/balloting.html

The ballots state that "In order that there will be no misunderstanding regarding the eligibility of a candidate, the recipient of the award MUST be a bona fide student of an accredited college or university including the United States Academies. The recipients must be in compliance with the bylaws defining an NCAA student athlete."

No way you can twist that ... as it is pretty cut and dry.
 

BigWillie

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Reality said:
One thing I would like to point out also is that unless the NCAA can prove that Reggie Bush had an agreement in place with the owner of the house or the marketing agent, there is nothing the NCAA can do to him. Just because his family accepted a rent-free house is not something for which the NCAA can penalize Reggie Bush. The NCAA will have to in some way tie the house to Reggie Bush or provide evidence of agreements made between Reggie Bush and the owner of the house or the marketing agent in order consider disqualifying him.

At this point, unless there are signed documents, Reggie Bush can simply say he never promised anything to anyone and anything that his family received was between his family and whoever provided it to them.

-Reality

Sorry Reality, gotta correct you as well on this one.

The whole thing doesn't even have to involve Reggie. He actually could be in the dark about this, and still be punished (well, USC anyways). Any marketing firm that will use a player cannot be in contant with a player OR his family. Neither a player OR his family can receive any type of gift from a company who could possibly represent you and market you and your athletic ability.

All that has to be proven in this case is that the owner of the house is the sports marketing firm. If it is proven by the NCAA, a punishment will have to be handed down.

You can look this up in the NCAA bylaws on their official site, or use this less time consuming link to see ..

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/compliance/dayt-compliance.html

Amateurism/Agents

NCAA rules provide that prior to the completion of your eligibility (which usually occurs after the last game of your senior year including post-season tournament, bowl, or all-star games) you:

1. MAY NOT agree, either orally or in writing, to be represented by an agent for the purpose of marketing your athletic ability or reputation in a sport. You will lose your eligibility even if you (i) do not date the agreement, (ii) date the agreement as of a date after you have completed your eligibility in that sport, or (iii) agree that the agent will only represent you in future negotiations after you have completed your eligibility in that sport.

2. MAY NOT accept (or allow family members or friends to accept) transportation or any other benefits from anyone who wishes to represent you to market your athletic ability.

3. MAY NOT negotiate or enter into any kind of agreement, either orally or written, to compete in professional athletics (even if not legally enforceable) and remain eligible in that sport.

4. MAY NOT receive any preferential treatment, benefits or services, including loans you do not have to begin to pay back immediately, because of your athletic reputation or money you may make as a pro athlete.

5. MAY NOT receive any type of pay for play (either directly or indirectly) and you may not be involved in any commercial endorsements for a product, service, or establishment.
 

Reality

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BigWillie said:
Sorry Reality, gotta correct you as well on this one.

The whole thing doesn't even have to involve Reggie. He actually could be in the dark about this, and still be punished (well, USC anyways). Any marketing firm that will use a player cannot be in contant with a player OR his family. Neither a player OR his family can receive any type of gift from a company who could possibly represent you and market you and your athletic ability.

All that has to be proven in this case is that the owner of the house is the sports marketing firm. If it is proven by the NCAA, a punishment will have to be handed down.

You can look this up in the NCAA bylaws on their official site, or use this less time consuming link to see ..

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/compliance/dayt-compliance.html
Okay, then let me present this scenario to you ..

You are a college football star expected to be drafted high in the first round. You and your brother are very close but your brother sees an opportunity to benefit from your situation and makes contact with a marketing firm promising that he will push you hard to use them once you enter the draft. The whole time you have no idea what is going on and in no way would have tolerated it. However, the deal is done and your brother is rewarded with an assortment of gifts which he claims are from a new job he has so there is no suspicion. Then, you graduate and enter the draft. Your brother, whom you trust, convinces you to use the marketing firm he made the deal with. Now, 5 days before the draft it comes out that your brother received gifts and money from the marketing firm you are using.

Now, you can say what you want about the NCAA bylaws, but I can assure you, there is absolutely no way any attempt by the NCAA to disqualify you or your team from the last season's records will succeed unless they can without a doubt prove that you were aware of the situation or you benefited personally from it.

As for the Heisman trophy, they have every right to stand by their decision even if the NCAA were to disqualify the player because like it or not, the player DID play the season and his records were not affected by any benefits his family may or may not have received.

The situation would be very different if evidence is found where Reggie Bush directly received any benefits from the marketing firm in question.

-Reality
 

Reality

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BigWillie said:
2. MAY NOT accept (or allow family members or friends to accept) transportation or any other benefits from anyone who wishes to represent you to market your athletic ability.
Thank you for highlighting that part .. it proves my point exactly. It says that he may not accept or ALLOW his family members or friends to accept benefits. The keyword is "ALLOW" which means he cannot knowingly let his family or friends receive benefits.

If he became aware his family or friends were receiving benefits, he would be obligated to notify the NCAA immediately in order to retain his eligibility. As such, the NCAA will have to prove that either Reggie Bush received benefits himself or was aware of the benefits his family was receiving. You can expect that his lawyers will not allow Reggie Bush to discuss anything with the NCAA until they can produce evidence proving he was aware or involved.

-Reality
 

JonCJG

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POSTED 12:45 a.m. EDT, April 24, 2006

COLE CONFIRMS BUSH REPORT

Jason Cole of the Miami Herald confirms many of the details first reported on Sunday by Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports regarding Reggie Bush and the apparently free teepee in which his family was residing during the 2005 season.

New tidbits from Cole include a revelation that Bush has hired lawyer David Cornwell to handle the matter. Cornwell has basically stonewalled Cole's efforts to get answers regarding the situation.

Cole also addresses the primary question regarding this situation: What does it all mean to Bush, and to USC?

Citing NCAA bylaw 12.3.1 and an NCAA rules guide for student-athletes, Cole suggests that Bush might have been ineligible for the entire 2005 season.

The controlling language, based on our own review of the NCAA bylaws, seems to come from Rule 12.3.1.2(b):

12.3.1.2 Benefits from Prospective Agents. An individual shall be ineligible per Bylaw 12.3.1 if he or she (or his or her relatives or friends) accepts transportation or other benefits from:

(a) Any person who represents any individual in the marketing of his or her athletics ability. The receipt of such expenses constitutes compensation based on athletics skill and is an extra benefit not available to the student body in general; or

(b) An agent, even if the agent has indicated that he or she has no interest in representing the student-athlete in the marketing of his or her athletics ability or reputation and does not represent individuals in the student-athlete's sport.

As Dante suggested in the April 23 PFT PodCast, Bush likely will be screwed on this one if his family did not pay a fair rental price during their stay in the house owned by Michael Michaels, an aspiring sports marketing agent. Cole indicates that, even if market value was tendered to Michaels, there still could be problems for Reggie due to the fact that the NCAA frowns on relationships between athletes and agents.

The consequences of a violation are still unclear. If this situation had come to light during the season, Bush automatically would have been ruled ineligible -- and USC would have been required to petition for his reinstatement. Even if Bush's family had paid over to Michaels the full value of the benefits received (if any), Bush might have missed a game, or more.

Now that the season has been finished, what happens? It's a question that we and others will be considering very carefully over the coming days and weeks.

Meanwhile, Vince Young might want to start working on a belated Heisman pose.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POSTED 10:58 p.m. EDT, April 23, 2006

IF REGGIE IS INELIGIBLE, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE HEISMAN?

A great question that several readers have raised in the wake of the jarring revelation that the family of former USC tailback Reggie Bush apparently was living for free in a house owned by a guy who wanted to handle Reggie's marketing work is what happens to Bush's Heisman trophy if the NCAA ultimately finds that Reggie was ineligible for the 2005 season?

Our best guess is that Bush would lose the trophy, and that it would go to Texas quarterback Vince Young, who finished second in the voting.

And though we're not suggesting that Bush eventually will have to turn over the biggest individual prize awarded in college sports, this thing easily could spin out of control -- especially since the Yahoo! Sports story has been picked up by the AP and will get a lot more play on Monday as the national talking heads begin to focus on the story.

It's not exactly the kind of attention that the Bush family was hoping to receive five days before the draft, but none of them should be surprised by the fact that their apparent decision to accept a benefit from someone who wanted to represent Reggie has been exposed.

Meanwhile, look for other journalists with more resources that us to dig deeper into the relationship between the owner of the house, Michael Michaels, and agent David Caravantes. As we explained earlier on Sunday, it appears that Michaels and Caravantes are working together in the representation of South Carolina tackle Jabari Levey. Since Caravantes is certified by the NFLPA, he might be hearing (as soon as Monday) from the union regarding his role, if any, in the acquisition of the house.

Also, the fact that Caravantes used to practice with Joel Segal -- who now represents Bush -- could prompt the NFLPA to take a look-see at whether there was any connection between Segal and the house owned by Michaels.

This one is a mess, folks. And we think it's gonna get a lot messier, quickly.
 

Natedawg44

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We like to bag on PFT alot around here but they knew about this over a month ago.
 

JonCJG

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I agree. I don't like to rip on them knowing that things can change very fast from the time they first start wrting about a specific bit of news. But IMO they have the best NFL rumor mill on the net.
 

BigWillie

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Reality said:
Okay, then let me present this scenario to you ..

You are a college football star expected to be drafted high in the first round. You and your brother are very close but your brother sees an opportunity to benefit from your situation and makes contact with a marketing firm promising that he will push you hard to use them once you enter the draft. The whole time you have no idea what is going on and in no way would have tolerated it. However, the deal is done and your brother is rewarded with an assortment of gifts which he claims are from a new job he has so there is no suspicion. Then, you graduate and enter the draft. Your brother, whom you trust, convinces you to use the marketing firm he made the deal with. Now, 5 days before the draft it comes out that your brother received gifts and money from the marketing firm you are using.

Now, you can say what you want about the NCAA bylaws, but I can assure you, there is absolutely no way any attempt by the NCAA to disqualify you or your team from the last season's records will succeed unless they can without a doubt prove that you were aware of the situation or you benefited personally from it.

As for the Heisman trophy, they have every right to stand by their decision even if the NCAA were to disqualify the player because like it or not, the player DID play the season and his records were not affected by any benefits his family may or may not have received.

The situation would be very different if evidence is found where Reggie Bush directly received any benefits from the marketing firm in question.

-Reality


Different scenario considering this happened last year.

But if you want close to an example, look at Antonio Langham back around '93. He was drunk in a bar when approached by a sports agency. He signed a napkin giving permission to the man and the agency to promote him. He wanted to stay in school, but couldn't because of his stupidity and the agent taking advantage of him. Thus was happened to Alabama and the punishment in the 90's.

But Reality, for you to make your point, you are being very nitpicky using the word 'allow'. You would also have to believe Reggie Bush is so naive that he did not ask his parents how they received three-quarter of a million dollar house for free. I'm sure he believed his parents if they told him they found it on the street corner and just picked it up.

To be honest, the NCAA doesn't even have to prove Reggie knew. If Reggie was aware his parents were getting an expensive house for free, and did not ask any questions, he and the University (which is just as guilty for not asking questions) should and will be punished. Although Reggie will get off without punishment, USC will suffer.
 
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