ProFootball Weekly:Way we hear it:Cowboys likely won't blow up O-line

[hairic]

I think that's more of a good-feeling thing on behalf of the player. It's not mandatory.

That's why they say the bonus is guaranteed... It's truly guaranteed.

When the guard we signed from GB retired after what-2 seasons? He never gave back a portion of his bonus.

I don't think they could have taken that money, regardless. He injured his back again in the playoff finale, and didn't pass the final physical. Injured, occured on the field, and can't pass physical, team can't get the money.

If the player can pass a physical and retires, then the team can get the money.

 

[Eskimo]

I think that's more of a good-feeling thing on behalf of the player. It's not mandatory.

That's why they say the bonus is guaranteed... It's truly guaranteed.

When the guard we signed from GB retired after what-2 seasons? He never gave back a portion of his bonus.

Was he waived?

That guy was a bum and a liar - he allegedly wanted to give back the bonus after he got hurt walking on a treadmill. Well he had his chance and didn't. Rivera ought to be ashamed of himself after making a statement like that at the time of the injury - made himself sound like some sort of a working class hero.

 

[28 Joker]

This is what I know.

After the 2007 loss to the Giants, I said that Ellis, Henry, and Williams needed to go and go now. The Cowboys didn't do it and they held back the development of Mike Jenkins and Anthony Spencer and SS was still an issue. Plus, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

I saw that Vikings loss.

Colombo and Kosier need to go and go now.

They can stay, but they don't start.

Free better be starting.

 

[Coakleys Dad]

This is what I know.

After the 2007 loss to the Giants, I said that Ellis, Henry, and Williams needed to go and go now. The Cowboys didn't do it and they held back the development of Mike Jenkins and Anthony Spencer and SS was still an issue. Plus, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

I saw that Vikings loss.

Colombo and Kosier need to go and go now.

They can stay, but they don't start.

Free better be starting.

Besides a few penalties Kosier has been solid, I think you forget how that spot was last year when he was hurt. I dont think he needs to go anywhere.... now Flo is a different story but i still think hes here one more year.

 

[Eskimo]

This is what I know.

After the 2007 loss to the Giants, I said that Ellis, Henry, and Williams needed to go and go now. The Cowboys didn't do it and they held back the development of Mike Jenkins and Anthony Spencer and SS was still an issue. Plus, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

Ellis probably could have been traded here but he was coming off a Pro Bowl season and the FO thought they were real close to a SB.

Henry definitely should have been let go back then but they waited a year too long. CB had been a big issue - earlier that year we had Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves essentially starting.

I don't think RW was acquired until the 2008 season. Are you talking about some other Williams?

I saw that Vikings loss.

Colombo and Kosier need to go and go now.

They can stay, but they don't start.

Free better be starting.

I agree with most of your points here. Kosier is probably most useful as a backup at this stage of his career - just doesn't have enough power to get the job done anymore.

Colombo just lost a step that he couldn't afford to lose after that last leg injury. I don't think he was great before and he certainly couldn't play in space. I think he needs to become a backup, too. Now that every team has seen how vulnerable he is to a good speed rusher, they will attack him over and over again.

Ideally both guys aren't on the team next year. I'd prefer just to keep Kosier and use him as a backup at 4 spots and leave the other spots for youngsters to develop.

Gurode and Davis are the only OL that aren't really showing their age.

 

[TheSport78]

Ellis probably could have been traded here but he was coming off a Pro Bowl season and the FO thought they were real close to a SB.

Henry definitely should have been let go back then but they waited a year too long. CB had been a big issue - earlier that year we had Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves essentially starting.

I don't think RW was acquired until the 2008 season. Are you talking about some other Williams?



I agree with most of your points here. Kosier is probably most useful as a backup at this stage of his career - just doesn't have enough power to get the job done anymore.

Colombo just lost a step that he couldn't afford to lose after that last leg injury. I don't think he was great before and he certainly couldn't play in space. I think he needs to become a backup, too. Now that every team has seen how vulnerable he is to a good speed rusher, they will attack him over and over again.

Ideally both guys aren't on the team next year. I'd prefer just to keep Kosier and use him as a backup at 4 spots and leave the other spots for youngsters to develop.

Gurode and Davis are the only OL that aren't really showing their age.

Yup. Didn't Kosier play center early in his career?

 

[Randy White]

I think that's more of a good-feeling thing on behalf of the player. It's not mandatory.That's why they say the bonus is guaranteed... It's truly guaranteed.

No. It is mandatory. A player must return the unused part of the bonus if he decides to retire early, or does something that's forbidden by his contract ( personal conduct ) IF the team asks for it.

When the guard we signed from GB retired after what-2 seasons? He never gave back a portion of his bonus.

It was Jerrah who didn't want the money back. Marco Rivera offered to give back the 9 millions, but Jerrah told him to keep it because he got injured ( iirc ) lifting weights in Cowboys weight room.

 

[Randy White]

Cowboys release offensive guard Rivera

06/07/2007

Associated Press


Three-time Pro Bowl guard Marco Rivera was released Thursday after two seasons and two back operations while with the Dallas Cowboys.

Rivera initially injured his back while running on a treadmill in March 2005, only a week after signing his $20 million, five-year free agent deal. He had surgery to repair a bulging disc in his lower back, but still started the first 14 games in 2005 before being sidelined by a strained neck.

Last season, Rivera started all 16 regular season games before hurting his back again in the wildcard playoff loss at Seattle and had surgery to repair a herniated disc.

When Rivera signed with the Cowboys, he was coming off his third consecutive Pro Bowl season while blocking for Brett Favre in Green Bay. Rivera played in 106 consecutive games for the Packers, including seven playoff games, from 1998-2004.

Rivera was a sixth-round draft pick out of Penn State in 1996 but was inactive for every game that season when Green Bay won the Super Bowl. He spent the next season primarily on special teams before becoming a starter late in the 1998 season.

After getting hurt in 2005, Rivera offered to tear up his Cowboys contract and return his $9 million signing bonus.

The Cowboys were already prepared for Rivera's departure, having signed another big-money free agent this spring.

Leonard Davis signed a seven-year contract worth nearly $50 million with the Cowboys that included a $16 million signing bonus. The 6-foot-6, 372-pound Davis spent the first six seasons of his career in Arizona after being the No. 2 overall pick out of Texas in 2001.

Without Rivera, Davis will almost certainly play right guard instead of tackle for the Cowboys. Dallas had already re-signed right tackle Marc Colombo and has Pro Bowler Flozell Adams at left tackle.

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8PK7II80.html

 

[Eskimo]

It was Jerrah who didn't want the money back. Marco Rivera offered to give back the 9 millions, but Jerrah told him to keep it because he got injured ( iirc ) lifting weights in Cowboys weight room.

No, I'm talking about the end of his contract when he couldn't play anymore. He fundamentally had the problem before he signed the contract if you know much about the nature of degenerative discs. He was listed multiple times on the IR his last year with the Packers. When he couldn't fulfill his contract he could have refunded the 3 years left on the deal.

 

[jterrell]

This isn't hard to calculate.

1) Dallas has zero reason to cut Flozell Adams. It's not like his cap hit hurt sin an uncapped year or he is owed so much in total that it would hurt if he were to be cut later. That's RW11.

2) See note above and add Columbo's name. He is strictly an RT and paid like an RT. Jerry could cut him to force the coaching staff's hand about Free but htat would be the only real reason to do so.

3) The Cowboys need to be creative and willing to play their best 5 OL. That means Free over Kosier probably. How they line those guys up is a full off-season and training camp's worth of work to figure out.

4) Dallas should use a high pick on an OL. The OL are slated to be there and we do have age along the OL. Again if we break camp and the rook is a top 5 guy then you get him in the game.

5) With Flo in the game we drove down the field twice against the Vikes and were dominating the field position and time of possession game. He goes out and we couldn't get 1st downs. That means maybe we should tap the breaks on cutting him.

6) Mike Jenkins is a more valuable CB than TNew now but we don't cut TNew because of that. You need a corps at CB and at OL. You don't cut guys who are still quite worthy starters. Not on teams with a Super Bowl agenda.

 

[Alexander]

This team needs at least two new, younger starters in the O-line, and serious playing time for the new back ups as well. Do what teams do with D-linemen and rotate the back ups for a couple of series during the 2nd and 3rd quarters of every game. Doesn't mean ALL the back ups at the same time, but give Columbo a series or two off. Same with Biggs, and if possible, same with Gurode.

If you are aware of any team that is worth much doing this kind of activity where they rest their starting OL periodically through the game, please post it.

Chemistry and communication is vital on the offensive line, it is not the same as the defensive line where you can substitute liberally.

 

[Doomsday101]

I would hope we would not blow up the line based on what took play in the Vikes game. I do think Dallas needs to address the OL in the draft but I do not expect a rookie to just walk in and take over. I would much rather have some vets around as I bring up the rookies

 

[Woods]

This isn't hard to calculate.

1) Dallas has zero reason to cut Flozell Adams. It's not like his cap hit hurt sin an uncapped year or he is owed so much in total that it would hurt if he were to be cut later. That's RW11.

2) See note above and add Columbo's name. He is strictly an RT and paid like an RT. Jerry could cut him to force the coaching staff's hand about Free but htat would be the only real reason to do so.

3) The Cowboys need to be creative and willing to play their best 5 OL. That means Free over Kosier probably. How they line those guys up is a full off-season and training camp's worth of work to figure out.

4) Dallas should use a high pick on an OL. The OL are slated to be there and we do have age along the OL. Again if we break camp and the rook is a top 5 guy then you get him in the game.

5) With Flo in the game we drove down the field twice against the Vikes and were dominating the field position and time of possession game. He goes out and we couldn't get 1st downs. That means maybe we should tap the breaks on cutting him.

6) Mike Jenkins is a more valuable CB than TNew now but we don't cut TNew because of that. You need a corps at CB and at OL. You don't cut guys who are still quite worthy starters. Not on teams with a Super Bowl agenda.

Just stop it, you are making too much sense.

I agree with everything you just wrote.

 

[Randy White]

If you are aware of any team that is worth much doing this kind of activity where they rest their starting OL periodically through the game, please post it.

Actually there isn't. But I'll remind you that teams didn't rotated D-linemen much either until Jimmah Jenius made it popular. During the 80's, it was always the same 4 up front: Dutton/White/Too Tall/Martin then Jeffcoat after Martin. Once in a while we got a glimpse of Don Smerek, but it was mainly those 4 who played most of the game.

It was the same for the other teams.

Chemistry and communication is vital on the offensive line, it is not the same as the defensive line where you can substitute liberally.

I understand that, and believe it or not THAT is one of the main reasons why they should rotate. If anything happens to any of the starters, the back up has already developed some type of chemistry, even if it's minimal, and at least knows what to expect communication wise.

Not to mention that it extend careers and keeps them fresh during the game. One of the reasons why the Cowboys lost in 2007 against the Midgets in the playoffs is because the O-line was running on fumes towards the end of the game after 3 drives of 10+ plays ( 2 of them consecutive ). Perhaps if players like FLO and BIGGs had breather in between those quarters, they would have been fresher down the stretch.

Once again, I'm no advocating rotating as much as a D-line rotation, but one or two series per game would be enough.

 

[Randy White]

This isn't hard to calculate.

1) Dallas has zero reason to cut Flozell Adams. It's not like his cap hit hurt sin an uncapped year or he is owed so much in total that it would hurt if he were to be cut later. That's RW11.

6) Mike Jenkins is a more valuable CB than TNew now but we don't cut TNew because of that. You need a corps at CB and at OL. You don't cut guys who are still quite worthy starters. Not on teams with a Super Bowl agenda.

" Nein " and " Nein "...

Flo is done. Stick a fork in him. Nothing personal against him, I've been fan since his days in Michigan ST, never thought the Cowboys had ANY chance to draft him in 1998 because I thought he was a sure fire 1st round pick, but his servicible days are gone. As far as how much money he's owed, even if the following numbers are not completely accurate and the real numbers are somwhere in the neighborhood, it could cost the Cowboys quite bit under the new cap if they wait to release him:

2/28/2008: Signed a six-year, $43.8 million contract. The deal contains $15 million guaranteed, including a $13 million signing bonus.


2010- $5 million, ( 35 years old )
2011- 5.1 million ( 36 years old )
2012- 5.1 million ( 37 years old )
2013: $5.1 million, (38 yeard old )
2014: Free Agent

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DAL

If the Cowboys cut him this year ( and the new CBA doesn't count his pro-rated bonus against the new cap ), it doesn't cost them a penny against the cap. If they cut him in 2011 and there's a cap in place, it could cost them as much as 9 millions. In 2012, 6 millions, in 2013, 3 millions.

We know there will be a cap in place when the new CBA is signed, but we don't know how hard that new cap is going to be. I wouldn't take any chance on that. Not when there's a ready replacement for him already on the roster.

As for T-New, although his case is much harder because I think he has 1 to 2 years left in him, his contract numbers are even worse than FLO.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Actually there isn't. But I'll remind you that teams didn't rotated D-linemen much either until Jimmah Jenius made it popular. During the 80's, it was always the same 4 up front: Dutton/White/Too Tall/Martin then Jeffcoat after Martin. Once in a while we got a glimpse of Don Smerek, but it was mainly those 4 who played most of the game.

It was the same for the other teams.



I understand that, and believe it or not THAT is one of the main reasons why they should rotate. If anything happens to any of the starters, the back up has already developed some type of chemistry, even if it's minimal, and at least knows what to expect communication wise.

Not to mention that it extend careers and keeps them fresh during the game. One of the reasons why the Cowboys lost in 2007 against the Midgets in the playoffs is because the O-line was running on fumes towards the end of the game after 3 drives of 10+ plays ( 2 of them consecutive ). Perhaps if players like FLO and BIGGs had breather in between those quarters, they would have been fresher down the stretch.

Once again, I'm no advocating rotating as much as a D-line rotation, but one or two series per game would be enough.

Remember Tom Landry use to rotate guards.

I think knowing your assignment trumps the whole communication thing.

 

[DallasEast]

This isn't hard to calculate.

1) Dallas has zero reason to cut Flozell Adams. It's not like his cap hit hurt sin an uncapped year or he is owed so much in total that it would hurt if he were to be cut later. That's RW11.

2) See note above and add Columbo's name. He is strictly an RT and paid like an RT. Jerry could cut him to force the coaching staff's hand about Free but htat would be the only real reason to do so.

3) The Cowboys need to be creative and willing to play their best 5 OL. That means Free over Kosier probably. How they line those guys up is a full off-season and training camp's worth of work to figure out.

4) Dallas should use a high pick on an OL. The OL are slated to be there and we do have age along the OL. Again if we break camp and the rook is a top 5 guy then you get him in the game.

5) With Flo in the game we drove down the field twice against the Vikes and were dominating the field position and time of possession game. He goes out and we couldn't get 1st downs. That means maybe we should tap the breaks on cutting him.

6) Mike Jenkins is a more valuable CB than TNew now but we don't cut TNew because of that. You need a corps at CB and at OL. You don't cut guys who are still quite worthy starters. Not on teams with a Super Bowl agenda.

Excellent post. The only thing I would suggest is that during the draft, if the highest ranked offensive lineman is still on the board and he trumps the next BPA, that player will have excelled at multiple positions in college--specifically left tackle and/or guard.

This is not a suggestion to replace Flozell Adams immediately, but one which accounts for long-term value and short-term depth at left tackle. In my opinion, right tackle is right behind left tackle in offensive line importance and we are in good shape in that area. The interior line positions are much easier to supplement as necessary.

That leaves left tackle. If the team does not address the position via free agency, I certainly hope it will do so during the draft. While Adams is a solid foundation for Tony Romo's blind side, the position does not have a proven substructure beneath him. It needs one both now and for the future.

 

[Eskimo]

That leaves left tackle. If the team does not address the position via free agency, I certainly hope it will do so during the draft. While Adams is a solid foundation for Tony Romo's blind side, the position does not have a proven substructure beneath him. It needs one both now and for the future.

Adams was decidedly mediocre last year with 8 sacks surrendered, multiple penalties (12) and frequent pressures. He is frequently banged up and at this stage cannot afford to lose even a quarter of a step. He is on his last legs as we ta lk presently and I am not convinced that he can play another year at LT. So the issue is one that has to be dealt with very soon. This much we can agree upon.

Why are you so convinced that Doug Free can't play LT since you don't mention him even as a remote possibililty?

 

[DallasEast]

Adams was decidedly mediocre last year with 8 sacks surrendered, multiple penalties (12) and frequent pressures. He is frequently banged up and at this stage cannot afford to lose even a quarter of a step. He is on his last legs as we ta lk presently and I am not convinced that he can play another year at LT. So the issue is one that has to be dealt with very soon. This much we can agree upon.

Why are you so convinced that Doug Free can't play LT since you don't mention him even as a remote possibililty?

umm...

I never stated that Doug Free could not play the position. I stated that we are in good shape at right tackle. Free has demonstrated this season that he is an asset at right tackle while filling in for Marc Colombo.

If you have a (relative) proven commodity at one offensive line position, it does not prevent a team from seeking to shore up another position. At this point, Robert Brewster is unproven. That does not mean he will not excel once he is inserted into the line. Even though he has been with the team longer, Pat McQuistan is an even more unknown than Brewster. Again, that does not mean that even he will not excel once he is inserted into the line.

Teams should not put all of their eggs into one basket. They should investigate and improve upon all available options. Yes, taking Free from a position of strength and moving him to a less sturdy position (even though Adams is still a solid left tackle) is an option. Likewise, viable candidates via free agency or the draft (my choice :crossed: ) is another another. I'm hoping that the team will keep all of its options open as well.

 

[jterrell]

" Nein " and " Nein "...

Flo is done. Stick a fork in him. Nothing personal against him, I've been fan since his days in Michigan ST, never thought the Cowboys had ANY chance to draft him in 1998 because I thought he was a sure fire 1st round pick, but his servicible days are gone. As far as how much money he's owed, even if the following numbers are not completely accurate and the real numbers are somwhere in the neighborhood, it could cost the Cowboys quite bit under the new cap if they wait to release him:

2/28/2008: Signed a six-year, $43.8 million contract. The deal contains $15 million guaranteed, including a $13 million signing bonus.


2010- $5 million, ( 35 years old )
2011- 5.1 million ( 36 years old )
2012- 5.1 million ( 37 years old )
2013: $5.1 million, (38 yeard old )
2014: Free Agent

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DAL

If the Cowboys cut him this year ( and the new CBA doesn't count his pro-rated bonus against the new cap ), it doesn't cost them a penny against the cap. If they cut him in 2011 and there's a cap in place, it could cost them as much as 9 millions. In 2012, 6 millions, in 2013, 3 millions.

We know there will be a cap in place when the new CBA is signed, but we don't know how hard that new cap is going to be. I wouldn't take any chance on that. Not when there's a ready replacement for him already on the roster.

As for T-New, although his case is much harder because I think he has 1 to 2 years left in him, his contract numbers are even worse than FLO.

A couple points:
1) OL generally play quite a long time. 35 is old but 35 year old OL aren't at all rare. Left Tackles are almost as rare as franchise QBs.

2) 9 million is a sizeable cap hit but doesn't include removing the 5.1 mil base you show above so that's 4 mil hit to cut him in 2011. 6 mil minus 5.1 is less than a million dollars to cut him in 2012 which is peanuts. You don't give up Left Tackles for that. He destroyed Trent Cole and easily handled Jared Allen while in the game.

3) Ready-replacement... thats bollocks brother. Everyone talks up Free but he had help against Jared Allen all day. The Cowboys don't believe Free is ready to replace Flo at all. Free was supposed to fall back and help Witten against Allen on that horrid sack we allowed that caused a fumble. Free had more help in that one game than Flo gets ALL year. In fact Flo is better without help. Did Free end up looking as bad as Columbo or Kosier? Nope. Does that mean he is ready to fill Flo's shoes? Nope. We need to find that out in training camp and pre-season at the very least before we cut Adams. you don't mess around with the OL to save a few bucks.

You can not assume a guy can play LT because he did a very good job at RT. Free is very promising but you don't cut guys who are Pro Bowl caliber players for a guess at LT.

4) TNew plays a position where 30 is ancient. If you cut anyone you cut him. He is very helpful and it's a huge risk but he's been injured more, plays a position where age is a huge negative and no longer plays that top CB position.

Both of these guys will be gone in 2-3 years almost without doubt. I seriously doubt either is gone THIS year. Both could simply renegotiate their deals in 2 years if they wanted to hang on a bit and not leave the team for free agency but few players do that.

Best case with Flo you keep him until 2011 then cut him if he won't take a pay cut. Same with TNew.