ProFootball Weekly:Way we hear it:Cowboys likely won't blow up O-line

MarionBarberThe4th

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I wonder if Flo should lose 15 lbs.

Hed still be tough to push but might be quicker out of his stance
 

DallasEast

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jterrell;3254997 said:
A couple points:
1) OL generally play quite a long time. 35 is old but 35 year old OL aren't at all rare. Left Tackles are almost as rare as franchise QBs.

2) 9 million is a sizeable cap hit but doesn't include removing the 5.1 mil base you show above so that's 4 mil hit to cut him in 2011. 6 mil minus 5.1 is less than a million dollars to cut him in 2012 which is peanuts. You don't give up Left Tackles for that. He destroyed Trent Cole and easily handled Jared Allen while in the game.

3) Ready-replacement... thats bollocks brother. Everyone talks up Free but he had help against Jared Allen all day. The Cowboys don't believe Free is ready to replace Flo at all. Free was supposed to fall back and help Witten against Allen on that horrid sack we allowed that caused a fumble. Free had more help in that one game than Flo gets ALL year. In fact Flo is better without help. Did Free end up looking as bad as Columbo or Kosier? Nope. Does that mean he is ready to fill Flo's shoes? Nope. We need to find that out in training camp and pre-season at the very least before we cut Adams. you don't mess around with the OL to save a few bucks.

You can not assume a guy can play LT because he did a very good job at RT. Free is very promising but you don't cut guys who are Pro Bowl caliber players for a guess at LT.

4) TNew plays a position where 30 is ancient. If you cut anyone you cut him. He is very helpful and it's a huge risk but he's been injured more, plays a position where age is a huge negative and no longer plays that top CB position.

Both of these guys will be gone in 2-3 years almost without doubt. I seriously doubt either is gone THIS year. Both could simply renegotiate their deals in 2 years if they wanted to hang on a bit and not leave the team for free agency but few players do that.

Best case with Flo you keep him until 2011 then cut him if he won't take a pay cut. Same with TNew.

All bold--> :clap2:
 

jterrell

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Eskimo;3254941 said:
Adams was decidedly mediocre last year with 8 sacks surrendered, multiple penalties (12) and frequent pressures. He is frequently banged up and at this stage cannot afford to lose even a quarter of a step. He is on his last legs as we ta lk presently and I am not convinced that he can play another year at LT. So the issue is one that has to be dealt with very soon. This much we can agree upon.

Why are you so convinced that Doug Free can't play LT since you don't mention him even as a remote possibililty?

Adams gave up 7 sacks in the regular season and none against the Eagles in the two biggest games we won, both against Philly. He has given up more than 7 sacks 4 times in his career. He had his lowest penalty total in 3 years last year including have a great stretch when games mattered.

He gave up 3 sacks to Dumerville and that raised his total but outside that he was solid all year. Do we need to plan to be able to bump the outside rusher into him at times? Definitely. Are there many guys who can play LT without double team help and not give up 7 sacks in 16 games? Nope!

Flo's play did not decline last year. He had a fairly average year for him which included the usual one awful game and if anything he got better as the year went on.

All him getting hurt proved was that we suck without him in the game. We had as much yardage in his coupe of series as we go the entire rest of the game when we could block exactly no one.

Flo man on man blocked the guys with the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th and 7th highest sack totals last year.
 

CF74

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I remember everyone saying Flo looked __________ (Awesome/In Shape, etc) at the beginning of the season. Can't recall the exact word that was used but he looked better than he had in years. Now many of us don't feel like he can finish a full season. Whatever the case we should consider trading up for a starting caliber LT. I like Free on the Rt side but he's unproven on the left, I have serious doubts about him excelling on the left...
 

baj1dallas

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wayne motley;3251671 said:
You were one game from the NFC championship...you don't blow up your OL. You do, however, take a glance at FA for a serious upgrade (it's unlikely, but occasionally good OTs are let go)...and you draft for the future. Extremely unlikely that you find an opening day starter that late in round 1 at OT, but you better start looking for them now so they have a year or two to learn the pro game and get ready.

Unless someone on the team already really steps up to win a spot in camp, or unless we do like Philly and bring in a probowl OT in FA, I'm expecting the same starting 5 on opening day next September.

I wouldn't be too surprised if somebody can beat out Kosier over the summer. He's never been great, he's been ok for the most part. Nobody is going to take Davis' or Gurode's spot and Flozell is not likely to leave either. If Colombo can get back healthy he'll most likely be back. Free will be the next LT after Flo retires, they'll probably look for somebody who can replace Colombo at some point, and another backup C/G.
 

jterrell

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CowboyFan74;3255035 said:
I remember everyone saying Flo looked __________ (Awesome/In Shape, etc) at the beginning of the season. Can't recall the exact word that was used but he looked better than he had in years. Now many of us don't feel like he can finish a full season. Whatever the case we should consider trading up for a starting caliber LT. I like Free on the Rt side but he's unproven on the left, I have serious doubts about him excelling on the left...

rofl....

Flo has started 16 games 4 years in a row and every year but once in his career. He came out against the Vikes and we sucked. That is all.

My pet peeve is people posting about how they "feel". That's for therapy or Oprah not guy talk/sports talk. :)

We need to develop his replacement but we have zero need to cut him right now.
 

CF74

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jterrell;3255052 said:
rofl....

Flo has started 16 games 4 years in a row and every year but once in his career. He came out against the Vikes and we sucked. That is all.

My pet peeve is people posting about how they "feel". That's for therapy or Oprah not guy talk/sports talk. :)

We need to develop his replacement but we have zero need to cut him right now.

Zoicks!! I can't believe I typed the word, "Feel.":bang2:



Not very many see Flo playing out a full season anymore...
 

Randy White

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jterrell;3254997 said:
A couple points:
1) OL generally play quite a long time. 35 is old but 35 year old OL aren't at all rare. Left Tackles are almost as rare as franchise QBs.

I agree about the LTs ( good ones being rare ) but we're talking about ozone layer altitude when it comes to LTs who play at a high level at that age and FLO is not one of those.

2) 9 million is a sizeable cap hit but doesn't include removing the 5.1 mil base you show above so that's 4 mil hit to cut him in 2011. 6 mil minus 5.1 is less than a million dollars to cut him in 2012 which is peanuts. You don't give up Left Tackles for that. He destroyed Trent Cole and easily handled Jared Allen while in the game.

No, no.. Don't pay attention to the base salary figure when I mentioned the 9 mills cap hit. You're talking overall cap number per year and that's irrelevant unless he's kept on the roster that year.

The 9 mills cap hit is from the bonus and guaranteed part of the contract that counts when he gets cut, the figure changes depending on the year. ( Again, remember that I stated IF this numbers are within range of the real numbers ).

FLO's 13 millions signing bonus + 2 millions guranteed ( 15 mills guaranteed spread out over 6 years comes out to an average of 2.5 mills per year against the cap ( not including base salary ). Since the contract started in 2009, only 2.5 mills of the 15 mills has been counted against the cap. That means there's 13.5 mills left. Since there's no cap in 2010, that's another 2.5 mills that would go away, meaning they'd be 11 million dollars left ( give or take a couple of mills, depending when the guaranteed 2 mills that were not bonus were paid ) by the time 2011 rolls around. Even if it's not 11 and it's 9, it's still too high of a cap hit to take for a player who's obviously declining right now.

If the Cowboys have a chance to turn that figure into ZERO, they have to take it. They'd be foolish not to.

3) Ready-replacement... thats bollocks brother. Everyone talks up Free but he had help against Jared Allen all day. The Cowboys don't believe Free is ready to replace Flo at all. Free was supposed to fall back and help Witten against Allen on that horrid sack we allowed that caused a fumble. Free had more help in that one game than Flo gets ALL year. In fact Flo is better without help. Did Free end up looking as bad as Columbo or Kosier? Nope. Does that mean he is ready to fill Flo's shoes? Nope. We need to find that out in training camp and pre-season at the very least before we cut Adams. you don't mess around with the OL to save a few bucks.


You're being too harsh on Free. Remember that he had to learn a whole new technique at the RT position, and did quite well, when Columbo went out. He was put in the Vikings game as a LT, meaning he had to revert back to his old technique, in the middle of a playoff game, against one of the premier rushers in the league. That wouldn' be easy on an experienced back up LT, much less him.

Give him full OTA's, an entire training camp, plus pre-season games, and going by the job he did as a RT with just one week of preparation, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind he's ready to take over FLO. Would he better than FLO was in his prime ? I doubt it, but FLO was a special player, however I would bet that he'd be better than what FLO is right now.

You can not assume a guy can play LT because he did a very good job at RT. Free is very promising but you don't cut guys who are Pro Bowl caliber players for a guess at LT.

FLO hasn't been a Pro Bowl caliber player in a few years now. He's been getting by, mostly, on an old reputation and the fact that the Cowboys haven't been able to develop anybody to take his place ( until now ). That's more of an indictment on the Cowboys coaches than on FLO's abilities over the past couple of years.

TNew plays a position where 30 is ancient. If you cut anyone you cut him. He is very helpful and it's a huge risk but he's been injured more, plays a position where age is a huge negative and no longer plays that top CB position.

I'm for seriously considering cutting him too. I was just saying that his case is a bit harder than FLO because he can still be servicible a couple more years, but not at the money he's making or is scheduled to make.
 

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People need to take a breath and calm down. I do not see any of the OTs being released/waived. One may be demoted but not let go, and rightfully so. And Flo is still the best Tackle on the roster (this is coming from a big fan of both Free and Columbo). Maybe Flo is supplanted in a year or two, but he is still playing at a very high level. The proof is in the pudding, Cowboys OL completely collapsed w/out him in the lineup against the Vikes. Completely. Overhauling the key position on your OL is not the best way to compete for a championship NOW.

As for his age, its just a number. Flo has been in the best shape of his playing career the past couple of seasons. Not sure if anyone is paying attention but the guy has gotten real lean, especially this seaon. And he's been playing meaner, at least he has recently. Flo didn't always have a mean streak, especially in his early years. He has one now.

Retaining Flo (or Columbo) does not mean NOT addressing the OL in the draft. Do both. Draft Iupati in with the first pick (he can play OG or RT). Then draft Maurkice Pouncey with the 2nd pick (he can play either C or OG). I would go one further, and draft Jared Veldheer (6'8 320 4.89) in the 4th.

If the Cowboys trade Gurode (he's got the best value in a trade), to say Seattle, for Max Unger and a high 2nd day pick (3rd or 4th), then take a playmaking safety with the first pick (Earl Thomas) and the best OG in the second (I'd still take Pouncey) and Veldheer in the 3rd (His potential is enough that I would take him a round earlier than projected to ensure the pick).

And I will let others who have more psychiatric training talk to the ones who want to let go/trade Terrence Newman. Cuckoo.
 

MarionBarberThe4th

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BAT;3255320 said:
People need to take a breath and calm down. I do not see any of the OTs being released/waived. One may be demoted but not let go, and rightfully so. And Flo is still the best Tackle on the roster (this is coming from a big fan of both Free and Columbo). Maybe Flo is supplanted in a year or two, but he is still playing at a very high level. The proof is in the pudding, Cowboys OL completely collapsed w/out him in the lineup against the Vikes. Completely. Overhauling the key position on your OL is not the best way to compete for a championship NOW.

As for his age, its just a number. Flo has been in the best shape of his playing career the past couple of seasons. Not sure if anyone is paying attention but the guy has gotten real lean, especially this seaon. And he's been playing meaner, at least he has recently. Flo didn't always have a mean streak, especially in his early years. He has one now.

Retaining Flo (or Columbo) does not mean NOT addressing the OL in the draft. Do both. Draft Iupati in with the first pick (he can play OG or RT). Then draft Maurkice Pouncey with the 2nd pick (he can play either C or OG). I would go one further, and draft Jared Veldheer (6'8 320 4.89) in the 4th.

If the Cowboys trade Gurode (he's got the best value in a trade), to say Seattle, for Max Unger and a high 2nd day pick (3rd or 4th), then take a playmaking safety with the first pick (Earl Thomas) and the best OG in the second (I'd still take Pouncey) and Veldheer in the 3rd (His potential is enough that I would take him a round earlier than projected to ensure the pick).

And I will let others who have more psychiatric training talk to the ones who want to let go/trade Terrence Newman. Cuckoo.

Like your ideas there except that Max Unger trade. Craziness there
 

BAT

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MarionBarberThe4th;3255323 said:
Like your ideas there except that Max Unger trade. Craziness there

:D Cowboys liked Unger for a reason. And its not just his versatility (ability to play G and C). Its also his smarts and meanness, and ability to get to the 2nd level. Unger is also great w/shotgun snaps. If Columbo is replaced by Free, the OL would need someone to replace Marc's intensity. Most importantly, Unger is a vocal leader. The OL needs a LEADER w/those qualities, in a bad way. Gurode is very good, a pro bowler, likely the best trade asset on the OL at this time, but sometimes you need to take one step back to take 2 steps forward.
 

MarionBarberThe4th

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Exactly.

So why would Seattle trade him and picks for a 30 something?

Belicheck level cheating there by you
 

BAT

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MarionBarberThe4th;3255380 said:
Exactly.

So why would Seattle trade him and picks for a 30 something?

Belicheck level cheating there by you


Because Seattle's OL sucks across the board and Unger is brand new, and playing out of position at OG. 30 is not ancient for an OL, especially one coming off multiple pro bowls and anchoring one of the most prolific offenses in the league.

Perhaps the Seahawks do not give up Unger and a high 2nd day pick for Gurode, but that's where the negotiations should begin. Gurode is still a beast in the pivot but he has plateaued. Seattle can only dream of reaching that plateau right now. They can't protect the passer or run the ball with any kind of consistency right now. Unger is not untouchable methinks.
 

BAT

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burmafrd;3255392 said:
Bend over seattle, we wanna do a walker on you!!!

Cowboys can lube it w/Ken Hamlin for all I care. :D
 
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