Question about 4-3 DEs

[Nightman]

A lot of people refer to the DEs in this scheme as WDE-weakside and SDE-strongside. But it seemed to me that Ware lined up on the Right and Selvie on the Left almost exclusively. I may be wrong on the ratio, but it didn't look like they waited to see the alignment and then switched sides.

Would Selvie replace Ware on the Right or stay on the Left? Is there a difference in size requirements and run game responsibilities? Where does Crawford fit in or a guy like Allen. I have heard that guys like Barr and Ford may not good fits because of their size. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[TheCount]

I think they'll want to keep Selvie where he was successful and try some things on the weakside - like Martez Wilson, Bruce Carter, a rookie, etc.

 

[BigStar]

Selvie should remain as the strong side or Left End bc he can take on blocks and set the edge (not @ an all-pro level but starting quality no doubt). The weakside DE lines up wider to the Tackle and could be a slightly smaller player (Barr, Ford) though ideally they would also be 265+. They then use their speed and athleticism and are less concerned with setting the edge than they are with backside containment. Ideally, Crawford would take Selvie's position as a bigger SDE to seal the edge and funnel things back insdie to the LBs. Crawford isn't the ideal (athletically) for a DE in this scheme seeing as they are the primary pass rushers along with the 3 tech. Selvie produced and was admirable what he did coming in as a street FA and the line will always have a place for him (starting or rotating). Allen is exclusively a WDE due to his size.

With all that said, if teams motion their tight end or don't line up in the standard strong Right formation, everything simply flips in terms of responsiblities, etc.

 

[thunderpimp91]

You could write a whole book on his question. Weak side/strong side is referencing more how they line up. Much like the 3 vs 1technique with tackles Ends play slightly different positions as well. Most times the strong side end will play off the outside shoulder of the OT. The weak side often straight up with he OT. This depends entirely on the formation. The weak end vs strong end is not nearly as different as for DTs so often they become comfortable wih one side of the field and play both positions from that side. This also happens because often your right DE is typically more of a pass rush end, as its most qbs blindside. The left is often more of a run defender, but an end is expected to play both .

A good end is big enough to take on double teams in the run game, but also quick enough to beat tackles in pass rush and keep contain on outside runs.

 

[conner01]

if you can move selvie he would be more effective. the problem is the strong side has to set the edge against a te and tackle. so you need a storong guy who can play the run. if sencer was to get healthy and come back he would be strong side and selvie weak. but selvie may end up on strong side by default. but he was much better on the weal side as most pass rushers are

 

[Nightman]

Selvie should remain as the strong side or Left End bc he can take on blocks and set the edge (not @ an all-pro level but starting quality no doubt). The weakside DE lines up wider to the Tackle and could be a slightly smaller player (Barr, Ford) though ideally they would also be 265+. They then use their speed and athleticism and are less concerned with setting the edge than they are with backside containment. Ideally, Crawford would take Selvie's position as a bigger SDE to seal the edge and funnel things back insdie to the LBs. Crawford isn't the ideal (athletically) for a DE in this scheme seeing as they are the primary pass rushers along with the 3 tech. Selvie produced and was admirable what he did coming in as a street FA and the line will always have a place for him (starting or rotating). Allen is exclusively a WDE due to his size.

With all that said, if teams motion their tight end or don't line up in the standard strong Right formation, everything simply flips in terms of responsiblities, etc.

Thanks. So basically an offense's strong side is usually their Right side with the TE, because the LT is their best blocker he gets most of the one-on-ones with the WDE. When they flip the TE and the Defense doesn't shift, the WDE has to maintain against the double team and set the edge against the run.

SDE= bigger than WDE to handle double teams, but has to get steady pressure
WDE= not as strong against the run, but has the speed and athleticism to get steady pressure
3T= has to be quick and get in the backfield
1T= bigger and a better run stopper, but needs to push the pocket

 

[BigStar]

Thanks. So basically an offense's strong side is usually their Right side with the TE, because the LT is their best blocker he gets most of the one-on-ones with the WDE. When they flip the TE and the Defense doesn't shift, the WDE has to maintain against the double team and set the edge against the run.

SDE= bigger than WDE to handle double teams, but has to get steady pressure
WDE= not as strong against the run, but has the speed and athleticism to get steady pressure
3T= has to be quick and get in the backfield
1T= bigger and a better run stopper, but needs to push the pocket

Your summary is much better (I rant)

 

[AbeBeta]

SDE= bigger than WDE to handle double teams, but has to get steady pressure
WDE= not as strong against the run, but has the speed and athleticism to get steady pressure
3T= has to be quick and get in the backfield
1T= bigger and a better run stopper, but needs to push the pocket

WDE is the real glamor position here -- to me, that is our focus in Round 1. We don't have anything there right now and you aren't getting much pressure on the QB without a good WDE. Ford and Ealy seem fits there but we might be taking them a bit high.

1T I see use throwing a couple of later round picks at.

 

[DuDa]

Daquan jones could be an elite 1 tech. Big strong but sneaky pass rusher.

 

[BAT]

A lot of people refer to the DEs in this scheme as WDE-weakside and SDE-strongside. But it seemed to me that Ware lined up on the Right and Selvie on the Left almost exclusively. I may be wrong on the ratio, but it didn't look like they waited to see the alignment and then switched sides.

Would Selvie replace Ware on the Right or stay on the Left? Is there a difference in size requirements and run game responsibilities? Where does Crawford fit in or a guy like Allen. I have heard that guys like Barr and Ford may not good fits because of their size. Any help would be appreciated.

If Allen is not signed, it is almost certain that Selvie is in the rotation for WDE. Crawford and Bass are more suited (and were not available last season) for the SDE side. Cowboys had trouble stopping the run last season, Marinelli will be tweaking this DL a lot before the regular season.

Wilbur also played WDE (on passing downs first and later on when Ware went down) and he was not any bigger than either Barr or Ford.

 

[DuDa]

I don't think we'll be seeing a traditional Tampa 2 this year. I think we'll play something closer to seattles cover1/3 scheme.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Thanks. So basically an offense's strong side is usually their Right side with the TE, because the LT is their best blocker he gets most of the one-on-ones with the WDE. When they flip the TE and the Defense doesn't shift, the WDE has to maintain against the double team and set the edge against the run.

Yep, people say and use "strongside" and "weakside" but in almost all cases they really mean right or left. Wade Phillips' defense was one of the very few that actually lined the LBs up strong and weak -- if you remember, Ware and Spencer and the ILBs would look to see where the TE was going and it wasn't uncommon at all to see them switch sides to line up even right before the snap. But almost no one does that anymore.

Anyway, like BAT said, if we don't come up with a passrusher to replace Ware, and Marinelli thinks Crawford is an end, Selvie could go to Ware's old position. One of the interesting things about camp will be where they put Crawford. Broaddus and Stretch Smith, who was very plugged in to the Kiffin hire last year, have both said he could be anything to a SDE to the 1-technique, which never made much sense to me. Think of the best strongside DEs and the best 1-techs and they aren't anything alike. Marinelli probably is 90% sure right now but we might not hear anything about it until after the draft.

 

[JDSTAR]

With the additions we've gotten, I could see Jerry moving up to get Mack or even Clowney. A Mack, Melton, McClain(or rookie), And Selvie line could be real dangerous!

 

[AsthmaField]

It is early and things will likely change but right now I'd have to put it close to this:

Selvie moves to the weakside (Right DE), and if we can't get anyone else, will probably start there. If we draft (for instance) Barr or sign Allen, then Selvie is the backup on the weakside, which is ideal for that position. I like Selvie and he would be really stout against the run for a WDE, but I would like to have him coming in as the second guy in a rotation there. He would be a very strong rotational guy but only average as a starter. Selvie really was a terrific find for us and is better than a lot of people think, even though I do want him rotating in instead of starting. The guy is strong and has a knack for rushing the QB. He is a lot better than the unheralded free agent that many think of him as. Finding Selvie is worth all the crap we went through on the DL last year. It will start to pay dividends this season as we start to put better people around him.

At Strongside DE (Left DE) if we stick with what we have, I think Crawford and Bass are the rotational guys there. Either could start at this point and I think they will, at worst, be solid there. I think we might end up with a second or third round player that could play at SDE (perhaps Crighton or someone like him), which would be better, but Crawford/Bass would be ok if they stay healthy. I also think either one of them might end up playing some DT in certain situations. I completely trust Marinelli and if he thinks one or both should get some snaps inside, I'm fine with that.

We already have Melton inside and Terrell McClain is an athletic tackle that will be a useful rotational guy there. I expect at least one relatively early (1-3 round) draft pick at DT that will go along with those two guys and Hayden who is a stout plugger who will be fine in a rotation.

Overall, I'm expecting improvement by leaps-and-bounds along the DL and that is the engine that drives Marinelli's defense. With this super strong draft, I'm really excited about how much the DL can improve over last year's group.

 

[AsthmaField]

With the additions we've gotten, I could see Jerry moving up to get Mack or even Clowney. A Mack, Melton, McClain(or rookie), And Selvie line could be real dangerous!

I like the way you think, brother. Give me Mack and I would be thrilled, just about no matter what else happens in the draft.

I'm not so sure about Dallas wanting to trade up as you are, but for Mack, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't want to do it for Clowney though. I'm just not sold on his mental makeup. A huge part of what I love about Mack is what is in his chest and between his ears. The guy goes all out all the time, loves to play football, and plays with a mean streak that most of the great defenders have. I'm not even sure that Clowney likes playing football. I mean, maybe he does... but I just don't know.

I would move up to about 7 or 8 for Mack and for Donald, I would go up to around 11. Barr, I might go up a little for, but I'm not sold on him either.

For me, about the only guys I'd trade extra picks away for would be Mack, Donald, or Manziel. Anyone else, I'd just stay at 16... but that's just me.

 

[speedkilz88]

Not including anybody in the draft, I would put Spencer if they re-sign him at the weak side as the best pass rusher. It also may be easier on his knee. McClain right now at the 1 over Hayden. Then Melton at the 3 with Bass the present backup. Then You have Selvie, Mincey, and Crawford fighting it out at the strong. Mincey actually up until last year had a better career than Selvie and he's been primarily a strong side guy. Then you can rotate the other two in for the starters.

 

[VThokie7]

With the additions we've gotten, I could see Jerry moving up to get Mack or even Clowney. A Mack, Melton, McClain(or rookie), And Selvie line could be real dangerous!

When you look at our glaring holes and depth issues we haven't added nearly enough to give away our draft for one player.

 

[BigStar]

It is early and things will likely change but right now I'd have to put it close to this:

Selvie moves to the weakside (Right DE), and if we can't get anyone else, will probably start there. If we draft (for instance) Barr or sign Allen, then Selvie is the backup on the weakside, which is ideal for that position. I like Selvie and he would be really stout against the run for a WDE, but I would like to have him coming in as the second guy in a rotation there. He would be a very strong rotational guy but only average as a starter. Selvie really was a terrific find for us and is better than a lot of people think, even though I do want him rotating in instead of starting. The guy is strong and has a knack for rushing the QB. He is a lot better than the unheralded free agent that many think of him as. Finding Selvie is worth all the crap we went through on the DL last year. It will start to pay dividends this season as we start to put better people around him.

At Strongside DE (Left DE) if we stick with what we have, I think Crawford and Bass are the rotational guys there. Either could start at this point and I think they will, at worst, be solid there. I think we might end up with a second or third round player that could play at SDE (perhaps Crighton or someone like him), which would be better, but Crawford/Bass would be ok if they stay healthy. I also think either one of them might end up playing some DT in certain situations. I completely trust Marinelli and if he thinks one or both should get some snaps inside, I'm fine with that.

We already have Melton inside and Terrell McClain is an athletic tackle that will be a useful rotational guy there. I expect at least one relatively early (1-3 round) draft pick at DT that will go along with those two guys and Hayden who is a stout plugger who will be fine in a rotation.

Overall, I'm expecting improvement by leaps-and-bounds along the DL and that is the engine that drives Marinelli's defense. With this super strong draft, I'm really excited about how much the DL can improve over last year's group.

Good point about Selvie potentially being our best pass rusher @ DE (draft willing). In that case it makes a ton of sense to shift him to RE but hopefully the draft finds a better pass rusher to develop for the position and he can remain a starter @ LE unless Crawford really woes, etc. Barr/Mack would be ideal.

 

[AsthmaField]

When you look at our glaring holes and depth issues we haven't added nearly enough to give away our draft for one player.

I'm not speaking for JD, but I don't think he means trading the whole draft for one player.

 

[AsthmaField]

Good point about Selvie potentially being our best pass rusher @ DE (draft willing). In that case it makes a ton of sense to shift him to RE but hopefully the draft finds a better pass rusher to develop for the position and he can remain a starter @ LE unless Crawford really woes, etc. Barr/Mack would be ideal.

I do think that Crawford/Bass will be at least a solid combo at SDE, although it is anyone's guess until they actually prove if they can or can not play that spot effectively. If the team thinks they'll be OK on the strongside, then I fully expect Selvie to go the the weakside where he has proven to be more effective.

I honestly expect Selvie to be better at WDE than Ware was last season. I think that, with the same number of snaps that Ware got last year, Selvie would get into double digit sack numbers... and be much better against the run than Demarcus was.

Hopefully we will never know and Dallas manages to get a clear starter on the weakside and Selvie only comes in on a rotation.