Race, the Rooney Rule and the Saints coaching search

[burmafrd]

When I started watching football, there were NO black QBs in the NFL. There was actual, serious discussion as to whether blacks could play QB in the NFL. University of Alabama still had no black football players. Etc.

This didn't magickally disappear. The Rooney Rule is a reflection of this sort of historical fact. To keep it around a little after it's main intention is no longer needed is not that bad a thing. Whenever that is.

BS. Racist laws or rules should never be used ever.

So what if it takes longer to happen; at least no one would ever be able to say it was because of their color they got the job. Which happens a lot now. Lower qualified minorities are getting jobs everywhere due to racist BS like this.

 

[The30YardSlant]

It is intellectually dishonest to suggest that we are talking 1972. Up until 2003 those men I mentioned were the only African American coaches -- with Dungy being one of the glaring examples of a guy who was passed over again and again.

So Dungy was being passed over because he is black? Even on a subconcious level, it's difficult for me to buy that NFL franchises were passing incredibly qualified applicants over as late as the late-90s for no other reason than they were black. Winning is too high a priority in this league to let personal bias, if it exists, get in the way.

The number of black players in the league jumped dramatically through the 50s, 60s and 70s until it reached roughly the percentages that exist today in the mid to late 80s. Is it too much of a stretch to say that it wasnt until the 90s that enough former black players had reached the age and experience neccesary for HC gigs to make the comparison to whit coaches valid? For the majority of NFL history there were A LOT more former white players than black, thus meaning more white coaches with more experience.

The average NFL coaching hire is made at the age of 43. A 43 year old in 2003 would have been drafted into the NFL around 1981, when black players made up about 60% of the league. They make up over 75% now. I'd bet a good deal of money that you'll see the number of black head coaches hit double digits within 10 years...I'll also bet the same amount of money that that won't satisfy those who are for the Rooney Rule.

 

[Rogah]

Why does the NBA have more black coaches than the NFL? Should be equal right?

Not necessarily. For whatever reason, the skill set that makes someone a successful NFL coach does not necessarily involve being a former player. While there are a few NBA coaches who never played professionally, there are clearly far fewer than in the NFL.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Actually, if you understand the context, it does make sense. Pittsburg had two outstanding internal candidates in Whisenhunt and Grimm. In most cases of that nature, the team is going to just promote one of them. Pitt was forced to conduct at least one additional interview with a minority applicant. That applicant impressed them and changed their thinking about who to hire.

See how things make sense if you actually give them though, rather than a knee jerk reaction?

Actually it doesn't make sense. If They had thought he was qualified then why not interview him initially. You are saying that the Rooney rule (named for their own president) forced them to interview a minority candidate? In other words, it was a set up. They didn't think enough of the practice to do it proactively. That tells you all you need to know about the stupid rule.

We want this rule so we want to be the example.

Any black person worth their salt and self respect should be screaming for the elimination of this rule.

I don't know if you are a black person or not but suppose you are and the company you work for has an opening and it would be a promotion for you and a white candidate. But you are not their prime candidate, the white person is due to his tenure, credentials and experience. But they tell you they are going to interview you because you are Black. How does that make you feel going into the interview?

Obviously they won't tell you that but in the end that's the end result.

 

[Hoofbite]

Actually it doesn't make sense. If They had thought he was qualified then why not interview him initially. You are saying that the Rooney rule (named for their own president) forced them to interview a minority candidate? In other words, it was a set up. They didn't think enough of the practice to do it proactively. That tells you all you need to know about the stupid rule.

We want this rule so we want to be the example.

Any black person worth their salt and self respect should be screaming for the elimination of this rule.

I don't know if you are a black person or not but suppose you are and the company you work for has an opening and it would be a promotion for you and a white candidate. But you are not their prime candidate, the white person is due to his tenure, credentials and experience. But they tell you they are going to interview you because you are Black. How does that make you feel going into the interview?

Obviously they won't tell you that but in the end that's the end result.

Are you black?

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Are you black?

No but I have plenty of friends who are and most of them hate the policy.

BTW, the color of ones skin doesn't preclude them from knowing right from wrong.

 

[Hoofbite]

No but I have plenty of friends who are and most of them hate the policy.

BTW, the color of ones skin doesn't preclude them from knowing right from wrong.

I never even said anything close to it.

I was just pointing out that a white guy probably shouldn't assume that he can tell black people how to think or feel.

 

[arglebargle]

When the starting line is the same for all, it's a fair race....

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Black coaches are actually overrespresented in the NFL coaching ranks.

What a completely ridiculous statement. Because African American coaches represent 16% on the NFL coaches and only 12% of the general population, they are overrepresented? Using that logic, then I guess white head coaches are still overrepresented since they only make up 72% of the population, but 84% of NFL HCs

And spare me the "They make up the majority of players" nonsense. Paying and coaching are completely independent, a good player does not necessarily make a good coach and vice-versa.

They do make up the majority of the players and while playing and coaching are two different things and are completely independent, there is a problem. I'd assume most coaches have some kind of playing backround, most likely players who weren't good enough to get a shot at the NFL or played D I or II ball, so you still have to wonder why 1 group of players not good enough to play in the NFL is getting more opportunities to break into the coaching ranks, than another group that isn't good enough.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Any black person worth their salt and self respect should be screaming for the elimination of this rule.

Not at all. Yes I'd rather get interviewed based on my own merits, but at the end of the day, I'll take a long shot over no shot at all.

IMO, I don't think NFL owners are racist, but it's all about relationships and who you know and I don't think it's a coincidence that there have been more black coaches since the rule. Owners haven't been forced to hire anyone of any color, yet they have so I can't see why anyone would complain.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

I don't know if you are a black person or not but suppose you are and the company you work for has an opening and it would be a promotion for you and a white candidate. But you are not their prime candidate, the white person is due to his tenure, credentials and experience. But they tell you they are going to interview you because you are Black. How does that make you feel going into the interview?

And whose to say I can't wow them and get the job? This isn't a scenario where "more qualified white people" are getting passed over for lesser qualified minorities, it's an interview.

And yes it would suck for the guy with the better credintials if he didn't get the promotion, even if the minority never would've gotten the interview, if they weren't a minority, but as long as you are hired based on merit, then you are just being sour.

Almost like Mike Tomlin getting the job over Wisenhut/Grimm, do you think he would care if they only interviewd him because he was Black? As long as he was hired because they believed he was the best candidate, I doubt it.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I never even said anything close to it.

I was just pointing out that a white guy probably shouldn't assume that he can tell black people how to think or feel.

Why? A person is a person regardless of their race. Black men are no less of a man than a white man. I think it is the height of ignorance to suggest that in the year 2012 a Black man is incapable of achieving on his own.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

And whose to say I can't wow them and get the job? This isn't a scenario where "more qualified white people" are getting passed over for lesser qualified minorities, it's an interview.

And yes it would suck for the guy with the better credintials if he didn't get the promotion, even if the minority never would've gotten the interview, if they weren't a minority, but as long as you are hired based on merit, then you are just being sour.

Almost like Mike Tomlin getting the job over Wisenhut/Grimm, do you think he would care if they only interviewd him because he was Black? As long as he was hired because they believed he was the best candidate, I doubt it.

So the Steelers copped to being racist then. That without the "Rooney" rule, they would not have discussed him. What a load of bull crap. They knew they wanted him and were going to hire who they wanted anyway. If you are trying to tell me that they didn't know who they had in their organization and what his credentials were you are bat crap crazy. These people know exactly who they hire. I think it a slap in Tomlin's face to suggest that the only reason he was interviewed was because he was Black. What a freaking insult to Blacks everywhere.

 

[The30YardSlant]

What a completely ridiculous statement. Because African American coaches represent 16% on the NFL coaches and only 12% of the general population, they are overrepresented? Using that logic, then I guess white head coaches are still overrepresented since they only make up 72% of the population, but 84% of NFL HCs

They actually make up 81% (Ron Rivera is Latino) but yes, statistically white coaches are overrepresented. Asians and hispanics are really the ones who should be griping if we're talking about underrepresentation.

They do make up the majority of the players and while playing and coaching are two different things and are completely independent, there is a problem. I'd assume most coaches have some kind of playing backround, most likely players who weren't good enough to get a shot at the NFL or played D I or II ball, so you still have to wonder why 1 group of players not good enough to play in the NFL is getting more opportunities to break into the coaching ranks, than another group that isn't good enough.

So how many black coaches do there have to be before you're satisfied? 10? 15? 25? At what point do we decide that social justice has been served?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

So the Steelers copped to being racist then. That without the "Rooney" rule, they would not have discussed him. What a load of bull crap. They knew they wanted him and were going to hire who they wanted anyway. If you are trying to tell me that they didn't know who they had in their organization and what his credentials were you are bat crap crazy. These people know exactly who they hire.

I diagree that they knew all along that they wanted Tomlin, he wasn't in their organization like Wisenhut so there's no reason to think they wanted him all along.

I think it a slap in Tomlin's face to suggest that the only reason he was interviewed was because he was Black. What a freaking insult to Blacks everywhere.

At no point did I say I believed Tomlin was only interviwed because he was black. What I said was, if that were the case, I doubt it would bother him. I used Mike Tomlin as an example because I don't think he was the prime candidate going in, like in the example you used, but never was implying that was my belief.

 

[Hoofbite]

So the Steelers copped to being racist then. That without the "Rooney" rule, they would not have discussed him. What a load of bull crap. They knew they wanted him and were going to hire who they wanted anyway. If you are trying to tell me that they didn't know who they had in their organization and what his credentials were you are bat crap crazy. These people know exactly who they hire. I think it a slap in Tomlin's face to suggest that the only reason he was interviewed was because he was Black. What a freaking insult to Blacks everywhere.

So you disagree with Tomlin's take on it.

And Rooney's?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs06/news/story?id=2750645

Said Rooney: "To be honest with you, before the interview he was just another guy who was an assistant coach. Once we interviewed him the first time, he just came through and we thought it was great. And we brought him back and talked to him on the phone and went through the process that we do, and he ended up winning the job.

Said Tomlin: "I think it's given me an opportunity to present myself maybe in some situations that I wouldn't have had."

 

[Manwiththeplan]

They actually make up 81% (Ron Rivera is Latino) but yes, statistically white coaches are overrepresented. Asians and hispanics are really the ones who should be griping if we're talking about underrepresentation.

and that's why I think that statement is ridiculous, because you have to consider the field to a certain extent. there aren't many asian or latino coaches because there aren't many asian or latino players. same goes for women, no women playing in the NFL so it's not sexist to not consider a woman for this job.

So how many black coaches do there have to be before you're satisfied? 10? 15? 25? At what point do we decide that social justice has been served?

I honestly can't answer that, I don't in any way think that since NFL players are like 80% (really don't know, just made up that number), that 80% of NFL coaches should be black, but what I do think is prior to the rule, minorities weren't getting an equal chance, and now, based on hiring numbers, it's closer to being equal.

Now let me ask you this, if no team is being forced to hire anyone, and it seems atleast that the inclusion of this rule is leading to more minorities getting jobs, why should this rule be eliminated?

 

[SkinsandTerps]

I am sure certain former players would take an appearance fee, to show up for an "interview".

The rule would change quickly then.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

I am sure certain former players would take an appearance fee, to show up for an "interview".

The rule would change quickly then.

no it wouldn't. once that became known, which ever team paid a minority to show up, would likely pay a record setting fine. maybe worse.

 

[rkell87]

So you disagree with Tomlin's take on it.

And Rooney's?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs06/news/story?id=2750645

if you believe that load of bull the rooneys said then I've got a bridge to sell you. Of course they are going to say that is what happened, if it happens that way then the rule they created really works!