Re-evaluating Roy Williams

couchscout

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As I've mentioned here on a few occasions, I'm an active football coach, currently I coach the OL, but I've also coached WRs in the past and even got to call the plays for a couple seasons. This doesn't necessarily make me any more or less qualified that anyone else to analyze game tape and come up with a conclusion about a player, but thought I would throw it in there.

Back before the 2004 season I was in between jobs, I was actually trying to leave coaching and become a scout, which has always been my dream. The NFL is a brotherhood, and unless you know people it's next to impossible to break in to. One of the things I decided to do was re-watch my DVRed copies of every game from the 2003 season and do an in-depth breakdown on every starter + all important players, as well as the GM, HC, OC, and DC. I've been doing this ever since. I use that analysis to forumulate opinions about specific players and the overall success of the team the following season. I've been really accurate so far, coming within 1 game of predicting the correct final record every year except 2008 which I think most of us missed badly on.

Recently I read somewhere (I think here) that Roy Williams did most of his damage this season in the first quarter and faded throughout the rest of the game. This is not a trend I had caught onto in my evaluation so I went back and re-watched every game to see if that was true, and what, if any role that played in the offensive game plan.

In specific, I grade recievers almost exclusively off of replays of other WRs making catches. Everytime they show a replay with a different camera angle of someone making a catch, I find Roy and watch him. Its not perfect, and WRs and Safeties are by far the hardest positions to grade this way. But its better than nothing.

Here is what I initially wrote about Roy after my first evaluation:

In my opinion, Roy Williams is pretty much completely worthless with very few exceptions. (I should point out that I wrote this before Drew Pearson came out and said what he said) He only has 3 routes, the slant, the go, and the seam/skinny post. By far his best route is the slant which I would rate a 8-8.5, would be a 9.5+ is he caught the ball 99% of the time. His go route is around a 6.5-7 and his seam/skinny post is around 7-7.5. The main problem is all the rest of his routes are below 5, and his deep out in particular is about a 1-1.5. He's not quick out of his cuts, he doesn't get off the line well, and he drops the ball far too often to be a real threat in the passing game. Teams were able to consistently single cover him and take him out of the game. Also, this season he started a very disturbing trend of dropping the ball if a defender was touching him. I only started really paying attention in the last half of the season, but I can't remember a single time he caught the football while a defender was touching him. All of his catches were wide open, and every single one of his drops except the one he "lost in the lights" happened while a defender had at least a hand on him. Roy desperately needs to work on his route running, quickness and acceleration if he is to keep his job past next season.


However, my opinion of him has changed slightly based on what I started to notice when re-watching the games. What was actually happening, was teams were trying to straight single cover him early in games, but he was killing everyone with the slant route. He deserves credit for being nearly uncoverable on that route. So eventually they started having the backside OLB sit in the slant throwing lane to take away that throw, which led to Garrett using that fake slant/draw play we saw so much throughout the season. Roy runs a slant, Romo watches the LB, if he attacks the line or is flat footed he throws it, if the LB floats back he hands it off and there is one less defender in the box. This was remarkably effective, and lead to defenses doing some pretty crazy things on the strongside to account for that LB having to play in no man's land, which of course led to other plays being successful.

I'm not a big fan of Roy's playstyle, or attitude, but I have to give him credit for demanding a double team throughout most games, even if it was quite unconventional.


*Side note: If teams try to do this with Dez in the slot...it's gonna get really ugly, LBs have a lot to do with stopping slot recievers, they can't be concentrating on stopping Roys slant, watching for the fake slant/draw, and helping the nickel corner all at once.
 
Interesting read. Thanks.


I noticed Roy open quite a few times and Romo just didn't get him the ball.


But he does have a lot of things he needs to get better out and I just dont think he fits what we do.

Hopefully he turns it up this year.
 
great report man, keep doing what your doing and keep trying and youll get your shot at being a scout
 
Roy looks pretty goofy running out routes and that comeback route is pretty bad. He is slow out of his breaks and that is what kills his ability. I'm curious how teams are gonna cover Austin, Witten, Williams and Dez all at the same time when we go trips set - been drooling over that since we drafted Dez.
 
An intesting and informed post about Roy Williams.

Many thanks.
 
Thanks OP, lots of thought here.

MacMahon/ESPN made the essential point: Mike Martz's offenses also made 1,000-yard receivers out of both Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey. Amazing that both the above were marginal players (or out of the league/McDonald) almost as soon as Mike Martz left them. Look them up on Wiki. ... That leaves Roy as Martz's other "system" receiver ...

It ain't RW's fault, as has been said repeatedly.

Jerry must have been impressed with Roy's 2-TD, 104 yard performance against us the last reg. season game of 2007. You look at the details of that game and Roy did have a great foot-dragging catch in the end zone (vs. Aaron Glenn, who was cut before the next season). The other TD was a give-up "fade" that T-New or somebody (couldn't tell) completely lost the ball and just stopped running after Roy. Watkins and the other Roy Williams were safeties. Aaron Glenn and Nate Jones were the nickel backs way back then.

I hear that Jason Garrett goaded Jerry to pull the trigger. RW was probably a discussion point over lunch for years, since Millen always said we could have him for 2 No. 1 picks. Quite a tease. ... Also read that Walt Yaworsky was one of the few voices of reason that tried to stop the trade. Oh veh ... Jerry and his receivers ... maybe Dez is the karmic payback for all his mistakes ...

The thing I can't get out of my mind about Roy is one play, I think the last reg. season game against the Eagles last year. The game wasn't in doubt at that point of the game but .. Roy was the lone WR on the left side in single coverage. The play (or read) was apparently for Roy to get an outside release from the DB (who was playing press coverage) and go to the left flag, corner of the end zone that is. Instead Roy can't break outside of the DB so he gets an inside release and runs down the middle of the field. Tony still is hopeful that RW will break to the flag but RW never does, and the ball gets thrown to the flag while RW is somewhere 10-15 yards away. A horrible looking play like it was the preseason at best. Afterwards Tony has this eating grin like either he's a fool or the other guy is. I can't say for sure who was at fault ...'

Why do we bag on RW? ... Like my awful stock buys lately, Jerry bought high and it plummeted. Can't decide whether to hold 'em or fold 'em. So there are two camps. Yes the stocks suck, but maybe we can squeeze a few more bucks out of them and feel better ..
 
igtmfo;3419136 said:
Thanks OP, lots of thought here.

MacMahon/ESPN made the essential point: Mike Martz's offenses also made 1,000-yard receivers out of both Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey. Amazing that both the above were marginal players (or out of the league/McDonald) almost as soon as Mike Martz left them. Look them up on Wiki. ... That leaves Roy as Martz's other "system" receiver ...

It ain't RW's fault, as has been said repeatedly.

Jerry must have been impressed with Roy's 2-TD, 104 yard performance against us the last reg. season game of 2007. You look at the details of that game and Roy did have a great foot-dragging catch in the end zone (vs. Aaron Glenn, who was cut before the next season). The other TD was a give-up "fade" that T-New or somebody (couldn't tell) completely lost the ball and just stopped running after Roy. Watkins and the other Roy Williams were safeties. Aaron Glenn and Nate Jones were the nickel backs way back then.

I hear that Jason Garrett goaded Jerry to pull the trigger. RW was probably a discussion point over lunch for years, since Millen always said we could have him for 2 No. 1 picks. Quite a tease. ... Also read that Walt Yaworsky was one of the few voices of reason that tried to stop the trade. Oh veh ... Jerry and his receivers ... maybe Dez is the karmic payback for all his mistakes ...

The thing I can't get out of my mind about Roy is one play, I think the last reg. season game against the Eagles last year. The game wasn't in doubt at that point of the game but .. Roy was the lone WR on the left side in single coverage. The play (or read) was apparently for Roy to get an outside release from the DB (who was playing press coverage) and go to the left flag, corner of the end zone that is. Instead Roy can't break outside of the DB so he gets an inside release and runs down the middle of the field. Tony still is hopeful that RW will break to the flag but RW never does, and the ball gets thrown to the flag while RW is somewhere 10-15 yards away. A horrible looking play like it was the preseason at best. Afterwards Tony has this eating grin like either he's a fool or the other guy is. I can't say for sure who was at fault ...'

Why do we bag on RW? ... Like my awful stock buys lately, Jerry bought high and it plummeted. Can't decide whether to hold 'em or fold 'em. So there are two camps. Yes the stocks suck, but maybe we can squeeze a few more bucks out of them and feel better ..


My biggest point of contention with Roy Williams is that the man flat out cannot catch. I suppose at some point in his career he had fantastic hands, but his time here in Dallas has shown quite well that he cannot catch the football. He reminds me of a much less atheletic, much less explosive Braylon Edwards. Either way though, I'm not one of those fans that lets my ego that is tied to my analysis of a player get in my way. I hope everyday that Roy proves just how wrong I am. If he busted out a 100 catch 12 TD season I would be right there cheering as loud as anyone else. I simply do these analysis' each season to keep my scouting eye sharp just in case I ever get that call. I found this new info about Roy very interesting so I thought I'd share. Its actually the first time anyone has ever seen any of my scouting reports.
 
igtmfo;3419136 said:
Thanks OP, lots of thought here.

MacMahon/ESPN made the essential point: Mike Martz's offenses also made 1,000-yard receivers out of both Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey. Amazing that both the above were marginal players (or out of the league/McDonald) almost as soon as Mike Martz left them. Look them up on Wiki. ... That leaves Roy as Martz's other "system" receiver ...

It ain't RW's fault, as has been said repeatedly.

Jerry must have been impressed with Roy's 2-TD, 104 yard performance against us the last reg. season game of 2007. You look at the details of that game and Roy did have a great foot-dragging catch in the end zone (vs. Aaron Glenn, who was cut before the next season). The other TD was a give-up "fade" that T-New or somebody (couldn't tell) completely lost the ball and just stopped running after Roy. Watkins and the other Roy Williams were safeties. Aaron Glenn and Nate Jones were the nickel backs way back then.

I hear that Jason Garrett goaded Jerry to pull the trigger. RW was probably a discussion point over lunch for years, since Millen always said we could have him for 2 No. 1 picks. Quite a tease. ... Also read that Walt Yaworsky was one of the few voices of reason that tried to stop the trade. Oh veh ... Jerry and his receivers ... maybe Dez is the karmic payback for all his mistakes ...

The thing I can't get out of my mind about Roy is one play, I think the last reg. season game against the Eagles last year. The game wasn't in doubt at that point of the game but .. Roy was the lone WR on the left side in single coverage. The play (or read) was apparently for Roy to get an outside release from the DB (who was playing press coverage) and go to the left flag, corner of the end zone that is. Instead Roy can't break outside of the DB so he gets an inside release and runs down the middle of the field. Tony still is hopeful that RW will break to the flag but RW never does, and the ball gets thrown to the flag while RW is somewhere 10-15 yards away. A horrible looking play like it was the preseason at best. Afterwards Tony has this eating grin like either he's a fool or the other guy is. I can't say for sure who was at fault ...'

Why do we bag on RW? ... Like my awful stock buys lately, Jerry bought high and it plummeted. Can't decide whether to hold 'em or fold 'em. So there are two camps. Yes the stocks suck, but maybe we can squeeze a few more bucks out of them and feel better ..

Between the original post and yours, this thread really has potential to be one of the better Roy threads we've ever had on here. Many thanks for the thorough analysis that leaves you walking away thinking, "Hmmm..."

I don't have much to add, but I will say I'm hopeful Roy's seeming improved attempts to enhance his game are legitimate. My fear is that his limitations (stiffness in route running, namely) is based on a physical limitation as much as anything and will prove difficult to improve.
 
couchscout;3419140 said:
My biggest point of contention with Roy Williams is that the man flat out cannot catch. I suppose at some point in his career he had fantastic hands, but his time here in Dallas has shown quite well that he cannot catch the football. He reminds me of a much less atheletic, much less explosive Braylon Edwards. Either way though, I'm not one of those fans that lets my ego that is tied to my analysis of a player get in my way. I hope everyday that Roy proves just how wrong I am. If he busted out a 100 catch 12 TD season I would be right there cheering as loud as anyone else. I simply do these analysis' each season to keep my scouting eye sharp just in case I ever get that call. I found this new info about Roy very interesting so I thought I'd share. Its actually the first time anyone has ever seen any of my scouting reports.

My advice -- you should share more often. :) Great stuff, my friend. We can all be wrong at any given time, but nothing beats the honest, sound opinion of a football mind. Many thanks for your contributions, and good luck in chasing your dreams. This board is populated by many a "connected" folk in the Cowboy realm, many of whom lurk silently. You never know who might be reading, so keep it up.
 
Good Post! I think it's very interesting that roys best route is the slant. Let me ask you this, How well do you think Romo throws the slant? It seemed to me that he throws behind the wr alot on this pattern especially when its to a fast wr. Is that anything that you've noticed in your film studies?
 
Big D;3419145 said:
Good Post! I think it's very interesting that roys best route is the slant. Let me ask you this, How well do you think Romo throws the slant? It seemed to me that he throws behind the wr alot on this pattern especially when its to a fast wr. Is that anything that you've noticed in your film studies?


Actually, yes. Without getting into too much detail (my write-up on Romo is quite long), Romo has a lot more vertical accuracy than horizontal. He's simply unbelievable at dropping throws in over linebackers and nickel corners playing a trail technique. He flashes the ability to hit recievers moving horizontally from time to time, but he's not very consistent with it (this includes but is certainly not limited to slant routes). One of the biggest things that caused me to bang my head against the wall during the TO years was our lack of using him on his best route (shallow drag), but after enough tape study, I think it's Romo's inconsistency with that type of throw that caused JG to not call up those types of plays. The inconsistency with that type of throw seems to be exaggerated quite a bit when the reciever is actually crossing Romo's face. Slants, drags, digs, etc. Its not as bad but still sometimes noticable on out breaking routes where the receiver is still moving horizantally, but not actually across Romo's face.

It should also be noted that the route combinations JG draws up for this offense seem to bare out this analysis. He utilizes a lot of vertically attacking route combos even in the face of defenses that are designed to stop it. I'm pretty sure its because of Romo's elite accuracy with that type of throw.
 
couchscout;3419146 said:
Actually, yes. Without getting into too much detail (my write-up on Romo is quite long), Romo has a lot more vertical accuracy than horizontal. He's simply unbelievable at dropping throws in over linebackers and nickel corners playing a trail technique. He flashes the ability to hit recievers moving horizontally from time to time, but he's not very consistent with it (this includes but is certainly not limited to slant routes). One of the biggest things that caused me to bang my head against the wall during the TO years was our lack of using him on his best route (shallow drag), but after enough tape study, I think it's Romo's inconsistency with that type of throw that caused JG to not call up those types of plays. The inconsistency with that type of throw seems to be exaggerated quite a bit when the reciever is actually crossing Romo's face. Slants, drags, digs, etc. Its not as bad but still sometimes noticable on out breaking routes where the receiver is still moving horizantally, but not actually across Romo's face.

It should also be noted that the route combinations JG draws up for this offense seem to bare out this analysis. He utilizes a lot of vertically attacking route combos even in the face of defenses that are designed to stop it. I'm pretty sure its because of Romo's elite accuracy with that type of throw.

That's what i figured. Last year Tony put alot of work in on areas of deficiency. I would hope he puts some time into this area.

I can't really argue with what Romo gives us now it's just frustrating to see a guy streaking across the field wide open and the ball is low and behind him.
 
I have enjoyed the thread also, coachscout...and thanks for providing it and your analysis. I'm kind of wondering if Tony Romo passed into a somewhat new phase in his own career. With the success that he had through difficult times and the hum dinger approaching, I wonder if he doesn't become much more focused as well as efficient in a broader variety of throws as well. Going deep and deadly can really be worked with the Dallas offense...
 
Thanks guys, that's some very good stuff!
When the trade happend, I didn't like it at all and wasn't alone. So far it looks like we had the right feeling about it...Anyway, so far this season I think Roy has said and done all the right things. Let's hope he can transfer that to the field. Still, he needs a monster season to be kept with the Cowboys. Either that or Dez Bryant has some serious struggles.

EDIT: Just realized this was my first post here. Mhm, I'd bet I was active before but oh well.
 
Great thread.

Thanks CouchScout for the breakdown of the players. It would be a great boon for any site if you contributed your thoughts on one particular player you pick every so often. Great stuff. Really appreciate it.
 
Great to read a thorough analysis from a trained eye, and the others that have contributed to this thread.

What makes the game of football so intriguing, is its complexity and simplicity, yes an oxymoron in its truest definition.

The analysis is as much apart of defining what a team needs to excel as the talent at hand, and having both, great coaching and superior talent is what truly defines excellence on the field.

The addition of Dez and what his presence initially in the slot translates to, is the final compliment to an already dangerous offense.

JGs playbook finally opens up to the unviewed section, that formerly this offense lacked the ability to excercise.

Thats why his selection was so critical, and has Cowboy Nation so excited, you can just feel the elecricity and excitement in the air, the same atmosphere I personally was experiencing in the early 90's, just a great era in Cowboys' football we are entering here.

Damage will be done!

Excellent thread CouchScout!
 
couchscout;3419140 said:
My biggest point of contention with Roy Williams is that the man flat out cannot catch. I suppose at some point in his career he had fantastic hands, but his time here in Dallas has shown quite well that he cannot catch the football. He reminds me of a much less atheletic, much less explosive Braylon Edwards. Either way though, I'm not one of those fans that lets my ego that is tied to my analysis of a player get in my way. I hope everyday that Roy proves just how wrong I am. If he busted out a 100 catch 12 TD season I would be right there cheering as loud as anyone else. I simply do these analysis' each season to keep my scouting eye sharp just in case I ever get that call. I found this new info about Roy very interesting so I thought I'd share. Its actually the first time anyone has ever seen any of my scouting reports.

This portion I've bolded is where a lot of people here hang their hat as far as expecting a more productive Roy Williams this season. His hands last year were simply atypical of what he has shown previously throughout his career. A return to form in this area shouldn't be considered pie-in-the-sky, it would be the norm for him.

Nice well thought out post by the way. I'd enjoy reading more from you in the future.
 
what attitude does Roy have?

I read the last little bit, and you complained about roy's attitude.

And it's made me discount everything else you wrote as tainted.

you need a jump to conclusions mat.
 
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