Re-evaluating Roy Williams

[jimmy40]

This doesn't necessarily make me any more or less qualified that anyone else to analyze game tape and come up with a conclusion about a player, but thought I would throw it in there.

define "game tape"

 

[couchscout]

what attitude does Roy have?

I read the last little bit, and you complained about roy's attitude.

And it's made me discount everything else you wrote as tainted.

you need a jump to conclusions mat.

Things like the way he told Michael Irvin, "thanks for the advice, but I don't care that you're a HOF WR, I'm gonna continue doing things my way." And how by his own admission he didn't like it when the coaching staff tried to get him to stay lower in his routes. The fact that he has been absolutely defiant with the media and anyone who would listen about how he is still a number 1, and still a dominate player when everything from the numbers, to the on field eye test prove otherwise. I'm not a particular fan of his type of attitude, doesn't mean its good or bad in other people's eyes, just that I don't like it. And my feelings about him had absolutely nothing to do with this evaluation, if they did I certainly would not have gone back and re-watched the tape to change my evaluation. I would have just stuck with my "he sucks and is worthlesss" original eval. And I MOST certainly wouldn't have come on to the biggest Cowboys board on the net advertising to the world how wrong I was on the guy if I was biased against him.

 

[couchscout]

define "game tape"

Heh, yeah thats a slippery slope isn't it? In this specific instance "game tape" is watching the television broadcasts, and paying very close attention. Everytime they air a replay from a downfield camera angle, instead of watching the action they are trying to display, I watched the background to find the specific player I'm trying to evaluate. I readily and fully admit it's not a perfect process, but it works fairly well. I was definitely able to see enough of Roys routes to see exactly how effective/ineffective he was on each of them.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I'm the head of GM and you should see the new models we're coming out with that run on tap water.

They will be amazing.

 

[jobberone]

Thanks guys, that's some very good stuff!
When the trade happend, I didn't like it at all and wasn't alone. So far it looks like we had the right feeling about it...Anyway, so far this season I think Roy has said and done all the right things. Let's hope he can transfer that to the field. Still, he needs a monster season to be kept with the Cowboys. Either that or Dez Bryant has some serious struggles.

EDIT: Just realized this was my first post here. Mhm, I'd bet I was active before but oh well.

to the zone

 

[jobberone]

Great post and thread. I enjoyed it. I do think that Roy runs the out fairly well and I've seen improvement esp between Roy and Romo. Romo is now able to throw to his back shoulder pretty well. The route is indefensible really. I haven't looked at film though to see how consistent this route is though.

I'd like your thoughts on this particular route, couchscout.

 

[Ren]

Either Roy gets better or Dez takes his jobs either way there will be improvement at WR this season. I'm pretty sure Dez could run that slant just as well as Williams and he's a hell of a lot more dangerous after catch then Roy is

 

[Eskimo]

I suspect much of RW's issues are due to lots of natural ability which lead to lots of complacency and poor practice habits. I think the league has adjusted to what he is able to do on the field and try to take away the couple of things he does well and have negated much of his production.

I do not know if his problems are correctable but it sounds like he is now open to working hard to improve his game and correct his deficiencies.

I have always thought the notion the problems are mostly due to "lack of chemistry" to be non-sensical, especially after they continued into the 2009 season.

I hope RW is much improved this year but I'm not holding my breath.

BTW, I too have noticed that Romo seems to be at his worst on crossing routes run by WRs over the middle. I don't think his outs, comebacks are too bad. He is mediocre on deep passes. Interestingly, his underneath intermediate horizontal passes to Witten are usually dead on but Witten usually isn't at top speed when the pass is delivered. I do agree that he is deadly on touch passes in between levels in the vertical passing game.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Thanks OP, lots of thought here.

MacMahon/ESPN made the essential point: Mike Martz's offenses also made 1,000-yard receivers out of both Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey. Amazing that both the above were marginal players (or out of the league/McDonald) almost as soon as Mike Martz left them. Look them up on Wiki. ... That leaves Roy as Martz's other "system" receiver ...

It ain't RW's fault, as has been said repeatedly.

Jerry must have been impressed with Roy's 2-TD, 104 yard performance against us the last reg. season game of 2007. You look at the details of that game and Roy did have a great foot-dragging catch in the end zone (vs. Aaron Glenn, who was cut before the next season). The other TD was a give-up "fade" that T-New or somebody (couldn't tell) completely lost the ball and just stopped running after Roy. Watkins and the other Roy Williams were safeties. Aaron Glenn and Nate Jones were the nickel backs way back then.

I hear that Jason Garrett goaded Jerry to pull the trigger. RW was probably a discussion point over lunch for years, since Millen always said we could have him for 2 No. 1 picks. Quite a tease. ... Also read that Walt Yaworsky was one of the few voices of reason that tried to stop the trade. Oh veh ... Jerry and his receivers ... maybe Dez is the karmic payback for all his mistakes ...

Good post as usual. Lots of little factoids in there most people don't know about.

I think Jerry was also influenced by the draft grade the scouts had on Roy when he came out. Jerry said something just in the last year about how they'd given Roy one of the highest WR grades since Randy Moss.

What's really strange to me is how Roy seemed to lose all his speed and athleticism at such a young age. Maybe he'll get some of that back this year with his newfound work on his conditioning.

I still bet Roy has a very good season this year, even to the point where we might not want to let him go but probably will due to the money.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Back before the 2004 season I was in between jobs, I was actually trying to leave coaching and become a scout, which has always been my dream. The NFL is a brotherhood, and unless you know people it's next to impossible to break in to. One of the things I decided to do was re-watch my DVRed copies of every game from the 2003 season and do an in-depth breakdown on every starter + all important players, as well as the GM, HC, OC, and DC. I've been doing this ever since. I use that analysis to forumulate opinions about specific players and the overall success of the team the following season. I've been really accurate so far, coming within 1 game of predicting the correct final record every year except 2008 which I think most of us missed badly on.

.

The brotherhood analogy falls short, I think. You also have to consider that Roy wasn't in sync with Romo. But I have a feeling it was something else going on. And I think the Cowboys did a good job covering it up. He suffered a rib injury early on against the Broncos. I don't think he was ever the same after that. I've watched him play a lot. And while he's not the most fluid route runner, he was stiffer last year because he had a rib injury. Rib injuries seldom heal quickly, so I think that may have attributed to his drops, etc.

He played badly last year. I was disappointed too. But that's not the Roy Williams I've watched over the years.

 

[couchscout]

Great post and thread. I enjoyed it. I do think that Roy runs the out fairly well and I've seen improvement esp between Roy and Romo. Romo is now able to throw to his back shoulder pretty well. The route is indefensible really. I haven't looked at film though to see how consistent this route is though.

I'd like your thoughts on this particular route, couchscout.

Not sure if you're asking about the quick out, the deep out, or the back shoulder fade here. So very quickly, Roys quick out is ok, nothing special about it, and its just about the easiest route to run in the passing tree. Its almost exclusively used in zone busting route concepts, so he rarely has to beat man coverage with it. His deep out is absolutely atrocious, as is any route that requires Roy to get up to full speed then break 90 degrees in another direction. He takes 3-5 decceleration steps and CBs just hang out in his hip pocket. The back shoulder fade is much, much more about the throw than the route. And its all about the trust between the QB and WR. It was very clear in my eval of Romo that he had lost pretty much all trust in Roy by the end of the season. When Romo needed to throw the ball up to a WR for him to make a play, he immedeatly found Miles Austin and pulled the trigger.

All that being said, that back shoulder throw could make Roy absolutely indefensible if he earns Romos trust back this off season. Also, I agree with a lot of the posters in this thread, I think Roy will have a pretty good season. I think I wrote something like 60 catches, 10 TDs. Don't know if that will be enough to keep Roy in Dallas for the 2011 season, but it would at least leave a better taste in most Cowboy fans mouths about his tenure here.

 

[evarc]

Between the original post and yours, this thread really has potential to be one of the better Roy threads we've ever had on here. Many thanks for the thorough analysis that leaves you walking away thinking, "Hmmm..."

I don't have much to add, but I will say I'm hopeful Roy's seeming improved attempts to enhance his game are legitimate. My fear is that his limitations (stiffness in route running, namely) is based on a physical limitation as much as anything and will prove difficult to improve.

You are correct that a lot of it is physical limitations but some of it can be helped and that is what the staff has been working on through the OTAs and Roy had worked on himself in the offseason.
Roy decided in the offseason to get stronger so he can get off the bump faster. I think if he worked as hard on doing so as he does in convincing everyone he did then he will get open a bit more. Add to the fact that the coaching staff is helping him with small things like playing lower and we should see an improved roy this year. How much I still believe is based on the way that JG uses him but still improved.
Also take into consideration that Miles Austin will be doubled more then not this year and teams will have to keep a closer eye on Dez then they would Crayton and I think it is safe to say that Roy Williams will have a good year. Not great but good. It should at least raise his stock by 2011 draft

 

[theogt]

Great stuff from couchscout, as usual. Note that Roy has said himself that he's not a stop and go receiver. Just not his forte. He has a rigid, lankiness about him, but that doesn't mean he can't be highly effective otherwise.

It seemed like last year he talked the talk but didn't walk the walk (in terms of putting in the extra work to be better). This year, it sounds like he's actually doing both, so it'll be interesting to see if there's improvement. It's pretty shocking that the type of coaching he's receiving this year didn't happen last year.

 

[BIGDen]

What's really strange to me is how Roy seemed to lose all his speed and athleticism at such a young age. Maybe he'll get some of that back this year with his newfound work on his conditioning.

I was thinking the same thing. He doesn't look as athletic as he did a few years back with Detroit. He's also mentioned, on a few occasions, how he has to do things differently now that he's "older". He should be in his prime! He sounds like he's 38. I think he is not used to working hard for success and it frustrates him. I was all for the trade, although I didn't like giving up the 3rd. He is a bit of a finger-pointer and I don't like that at all. That's the kind of crap we got rid of last year. I do believe he's working harder than he has in the past and should be better this year, but I'm not overly optimistic. He has a limited skill set and will have to maximize the opportunities he gets, because those limitations will limit the # of looks that he gets. I truly hope he has a great year, but I'm glad we're not counting on it (we've got many other weapons if he fails).

 

[CF74]

Thanks guys, that's some very good stuff!
When the trade happend, I didn't like it at all and wasn't alone. So far it looks like we had the right feeling about it...Anyway, so far this season I think Roy has said and done all the right things. Let's hope he can transfer that to the field. Still, he needs a monster season to be kept with the Cowboys. Either that or Dez Bryant has some serious struggles.

EDIT: Just realized this was my first post here. Mhm, I'd bet I was active before but oh well.

Wow lurking for 5 years..

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Fail.

By far his best route is the slant which I would rate a 8-8.5, would be a 9.5+ is he caught the ball 99% of the time. His go route is around a 6.5-7 and his seam/skinny post is around 7-7.5.

 

[FLCowboyFan]

What is amazing is to look at William's draft analysis. It looks earily similar to Dez's

6-3

Weight: 215

40-Yard Dash: 4.42
Positives:
Roy Williams is one of the best receivers in the 2004 NFL Draft pool and may be the first wide receiver taken overall. He has the size, speed, and athletic ability to be dominant in the NFL. He also possesses big, soft hands, rarely drops a pass, has great body control, and really good ball skills.
Williams is the type of receiver that can burn a defense deep or turn a short pass into a big gain. He gets off the line of scrimmage well, and his speed and strength make him tough to bring down in the open field. He also has the agility to adjust to poorly thrown balls, so he tends to help make his quarterback look a little better than he really is. He should give defensive backs nightmares in the NFL.
Negatives:
There's not a whole lot to not like about Williams' game other than the fact that he is a bit of a finesse player and always seems to have some small nagging injury, although none have been serious. If he stays healthy and aggressive at the next level, there is nothing to stop him from being a perennial All-Pro.
Projection:
Roy Williams should be a top-10 pick in the 2004 NFL Draft.

 

[FLCowboyFan]

Dez ran a 4.53 40....actually slower than RW........I don't know what happened to the man but he should be better than he has shown

 

[xpistofer]

Fail.

no: (1) the slant, (2) the slant and stop, and (3) the 30 yard slant....

all 1 route, hence no fail...

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Great stuff from couchscout, as usual. Note that Roy has said himself that he's not a stop and go receiver. Just not his forte. He has a rigid, lankiness about him, but that doesn't mean he can't be highly effective otherwise.

It seemed like last year he talked the talk but didn't walk the walk (in terms of putting in the extra work to be better). This year, it sounds like he's actually doing both, so it'll be interesting to see if there's improvement. It's pretty shocking that the type of coaching he's receiving this year didn't happen last year.

I think if Roy works hard enough, he's capable of almost anything, including running crisp routes. We don't know anything about the upcoming year at all. But I predict RW plays well enough to earn some respect.