CFZ Recent Focus on Defensive Tackle position

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Trysten Hill was a desperation pick after getting demolished in the playoffs. The DT position under Garrett and Marinelli was a joke. There's a huge difference between being proactive and reactive. It was nothing but late round picks and low end FAs with the exception of Collins before they took Hill. There's not only a significant difference in addressing the position, but also evaluating it. That goes for the rest of the defense as well.

Player quality and overall investment isn't the same thing.

Other than Mazi, the investment has been mostly late-round picks and low-end FAs under McCarthy. One player doesn't make a trend.

 

[Creeper]

I have been on this DT thing for the last few years. Prior to Mazi, the Cowboys had not drafted a DT in the 1st round since 1991 when they took Russell Maryland. Since then they have used a few 2nd round picks and a few 3rd round picks, but they never went full throttle to get a DT. Even in free agency they went for guys at the end of their careers or guys like Carlos Watkins - for the most part. They have never taken a serious shot at signing a top tier DT in his prime, and there have been a few out there. Then again, they haven't signed many top tier free agents at any position over the years.

At the same time, going back over the drafts, they haven't really had a shot at a top tier DT in the draft more than once or twice. It certainly looks like they never prioritized the position, but we do not really know what their thinking has been on the position. It is good to see them draft Mazi in the first, but he needs to come through and play at a high level over the next 3 years.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

I have been on this DT thing for the last few years. Prior to Mazi, the Cowboys had not drafted a DT in the 1st round since 1991 when they took Russell Maryland. Since then they have used a few 2nd round picks and a few 3rd round picks, but they never went full throttle to get a DT. Even in free agency they went for guys at the end of their careers or guys like Carlos Watkins - for the most part. They have never taken a serious shot at signing a top tier DT in his prime, and there have been a few out there. Then again, they haven't signed many top tier free agents at any position over the years.

At the same time, going back over the drafts, they haven't really had a shot at a top tier DT in the draft more than once or twice. It certainly looks like they never prioritized the position, but we do not really know what their thinking has been on the position. It is good to see them draft Mazi in the first, but he needs to come through and play at a high level over the next 3 years.

Drafting a DT in the first round is basically never worth the investment though. That's not a bad thing.

 

[kskboys]

I have been on this DT thing for the last few years. Prior to Mazi, the Cowboys had not drafted a DT in the 1st round since 1991 when they took Russell Maryland. Since then they have used a few 2nd round picks and a few 3rd round picks, but they never went full throttle to get a DT. Even in free agency they went for guys at the end of their careers or guys like Carlos Watkins - for the most part. They have never taken a serious shot at signing a top tier DT in his prime, and there have been a few out there. Then again, they haven't signed many top tier free agents at any position over the years.

At the same time, going back over the drafts, they haven't really had a shot at a top tier DT in the draft more than once or twice. It certainly looks like they never prioritized the position, but we do not really know what their thinking has been on the position. It is good to see them draft Mazi in the first, but he needs to come through and play at a high level over the next 3 years.

Fletcher Cox
Chris Jones
Cameron Heyward
Derrick Brown
Kenny Clark
Grady Jarrett
Ashawn Robinson
DJ Reader
Javon Hargrave


Those are just off the top of my head. We've passed on DT prospects over and over again. Not sure why you'd say we haven't had a shot. Until MM, our focus has been on CBs, WRs, LBs, TEs, and edge rushers. We've ignored the DT position for a long long time. We are terrible at player evaluation, and don't(didn't?) appear to comprehend the skillset needed to dominate at DT. We kept drafting tall lanky "rushmen" instead of even attempting to get a guy who can dominate the LOS.

Even Malik Collins, who is a very good player BTW, came in as a rushman, not a LOS collapser.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

2022: Jordan Davis (PHI), Devonte Wyatt (GB)
2021:
2020: Derrick Brown (CAR), Javon Kinlaw (SF)
2019: Quinnen Williams (NYJ), Ed Oliver (BUF), Christian Wilkins (MIA), Dexter Lawrence (NYG), Jeffery Simmons (TEN), Jerry Tillery (LAC)
2018: Vita Vea (TB), Daron Payne (WAS), Taven Bryan (JAX)
2017:
2016: Sheldon Rankins (NOR), Kenny Clark (GB)
2015: Danny Shleton (CLE), Arik Armstead (SF), Malcolm Brown (NE)
2014: Aaron Donald (LAR), Dominique Easley (NE)
2013: Sheldon Richardson (NYJ), Star Lotulelei (CAR), Sharrif Floyd (MIN), Sylvester Williams (DEN)

We're talking about 6-8 guys in the last decade who are worth a first-round pick. They're just not worth it.

 

[kskboys]

Drafting a DT in the first round is basically never worth the investment though. That's not a bad thing.

You meant to say always worth the investment.

If you can evaluate players, which we suck at.

 

[kskboys]

2022: Jordan Davis (PHI), Devonte Wyatt (GB)
2021:
2020: Derrick Brown (CAR), Javon Kinlaw (SF)
2019: Quinnen Williams (NYJ), Ed Oliver (BUF), Christian Wilkins (MIA), Dexter Lawrence (NYG), Jeffery Simmons (TEN), Jerry Tillery (LAC)
2018: Vita Vea (TB), Daron Payne (WAS), Taven Bryan (JAX)
2017:
2016: Sheldon Rankins (NOR), Kenny Clark (GB)
2015: Danny Shleton (CLE), Arik Armstead (SF), Malcolm Brown (NE)
2014: Aaron Donald (LAR), Dominique Easley (NE)
2013: Sheldon Richardson (NYJ), Star Lotulelei (CAR), Sharrif Floyd (MIN), Sylvester Williams (DEN)

We're talking about 6-8 guys in the last decade who are worth a first-round pick. They're just not worth it.

Man, you just don't pay attention. That list is littered w/ difference makers at DT. Take Dexter Lawrence, for example. Rising star who led the Giants in sacks last year. 7.5 from the Nose, and at 342 lbs. Christian Wilkins is an elite run defender. Payne had 11.5 sacks last year and is considered elite. Rankins was a complete stud. Star was very good.

Manalive, you must get your info from BSPN. They are misleading you, dude.

 

[xwalker]

Disagree on OO. Dude can play.

He had four sacks last year at the 3-tech spot, which is supposed to be a high-pressure spot. He needs to do more. Now, if you mean he can play better than our other 3-tech options, you are correct. We still don't have that stud there that offenses have to devote resources to stop, creating mismatches for other players. Right now, he capitalizes on the mismatches created by offenses focusing on Parsons and, to a lesser extent, Lawrence.

3rd round pick that was a 12 and 17 game starter in year 1 and 2.

 

[Creeper]

Fletcher Cox
Chris Jones
Cameron Heyward
Derrick Brown
Kenny Clark
Grady Jarrett
Ashawn Robinson
DJ Reader
Javon Hargrave


Those are just off the top of my head. We've passed on DT prospects over and over again. Not sure why you'd say we haven't had a shot. Until MM, our focus has been on CBs, WRs, LBs, TEs, and edge rushers. We've ignored the DT position for a long long time. We are terrible at player evaluation, and don't(didn't?) appear to comprehend the skillset needed to dominate at DT. We kept drafting tall lanky "rushmen" instead of even attempting to get a guy who can dominate the LOS.

Even Malik Collins, who is a very good player BTW, came in as a rushman, not a LOS collapser.

To be clear, I believe the Cowboys did not prioritize the DT position. Clearly over the years they had opportunities to draft DTs and didn't. In some cases mistakes were made in my opinion. Taking Jaylon Smith in round 2 in 2016 was a huge mistake. In that draft they had a chance at DeForest Buckner, Kenny Clark, A'Shawn Robinson, or Chris Jones and went with Zeke and Jaylon Smith. But in most years they did not have a good DT option. They did not have a shot at Derrick Brown who was the 7th pick. The Cowboys drafted 17th that year and took CeeDee Lamb.

They took Tyron Smith over Heyward, which I do not think was the right choice that year. LT is more valuable than DT.

 

[blueblood70]

You can see how the Eagles have had huge success in our division investing in the trenches.

Sure that's great but I watched the Super bowl did you looked like they got ran over by a running back by committee couldn't get a sack and receivers with very little name recognition and a one legged quarterback was able to come back in the second-half and win a game.. Just want to make sure we're clear on just how the Eagles defensive line is rated when you really look at how they played against the better teams I mean didn't they allow us to drop 40 points on them?

 

[Havic]

Sure that's great but I watched the Super bowl did you looked like they got ran over by a running back by committee couldn't get a sack and receivers with very little name recognition and a one legged quarterback was able to come back in the second-half and win a game.. Just want to make sure we're clear on just how the Eagles defensive line is rated when you really look at how they played against the better teams I mean didn't they allow us to drop 40 points on them?

Field conditions nullified their pass rush

 

[blueblood70]

Field conditions nullified their pass rush

oh here comes the excuses but somehow Kansas City played on the same field in one can we give it a break literally just stop the nonsense have the field conditions in the first half have them up by 10?? but lose the game you sound like an Eagles fan how many Eagles fans are on this board?????????????????????????????????????????? can you please just go away!! Fly into a planes engine..

I think it's ironic that in the 2018 Rams game our defense complained about the field conditions and our fan base said it was just a bunch of excuses but of course they'll come in here to a Cowboys forum in playing the Eagles had a disadvantage somehow to make excuses!!! excuses are only for other teams huh?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes the perpetual circus we are in here...

 

[Havic]

oh here comes the excuses but somehow Kansas City played on the same field in one can we give it a break literally just stop the nonsense have the field conditions in the first half have them up by 10?? but lose the game you sound like an Eagles fan how many Eagles fans are on this board?????????????????????????????????????????? can you please just go away!! Fly into a planes engine..

I think it's ironic that in the 2018 Rams game our defense complained about the field conditions and our fan base said it was just a bunch of excuses but of course they'll come in here to a Cowboys forum in playing the Eagles had a disadvantage somehow to make excuses!!! excuses are only for other teams huh?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes the perpetual circus we are in here...

??
The field conditions were poor, there is no debating that. Both sides complained about it. It’s a fact the eagles have good lines on both sides of ball and wow they’ve had success because of it. What an amazing coincidence.

Surely anyone who watches and understands football could see something like that. Your right though, anyone who acknowledges positives from other teams within their division must secretly be fans.

 

[blueblood70]

??
The field conditions were poor, there is no debating that. Both sides complained about it. It’s a fact the eagles have good lines on both sides of ball and wow they’ve had success because of it. What an amazing coincidence.

Surely anyone who watches and understands football could see something like that. Your right though, anyone who acknowledges positives from other teams within their division must secretly be fans.

It's called a neutral field for a reason of course someone who watches football would understand that the fact is the Eagles were up by 10 and lost that means at one point the field was not an issue OK so take your rolled up eyes and go hide somewhere because it's just a damn excuse that sounds like whining complaining excuses cause both teams played on it period end of story they lost they get no excuse from me because our team gets no excuse.

ever!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Field conditions nullified their pass rush

This is the dumbest thing to come out of last year.

 

[Dallasfann]

This isn't all that different than the previous regime, and it's pretty generous to count Golston and Fehoko, since they were both DEs in college and haven't done anything in the NFL. But from the 4 years previous:

2nd round - Trysten Hill
3rd round - Maliek Collins
6th round - Michael Bennett
7th round - Joey Ivy, Jordan Carroll
They also signed: Datone Jones, Stephen Paea, David Irving, Brian Price, Antwaun Woods, Christian Covington, Terrell McClain, Cedric Thornton

There's no more significant investment at DT now than previously.

I don't know who Michael Bennett is. I remember having the Seahawks Bennett for a year. Either way, you're wrong. We've selected 6 DT's before rounds 6 since McCarthy. We drafted 2 of them in the 4 years prior a 2nd and 3rd. Just picking one in the 1st round is enough to say you're wrong about significant investment. If you don't think a 1st round pick is a significant investment in the NFL go ask GM's how hard it is to attain one.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Just picking one in the 1st round is enough to say you're wrong about significant investment. If you don't think a 1st round pick is a significant investment in the NFL go ask GM's how hard it is to attain one.

I didn't say that.

I said that one pick doesn't make a trend or pattern, especially not one worthy of saying that there's some overall organizational shift.

 

[plasticman]

2022: Jordan Davis (PHI), Devonte Wyatt (GB)
2021:
2020: Derrick Brown (CAR), Javon Kinlaw (SF)
2019: Quinnen Williams (NYJ), Ed Oliver (BUF), Christian Wilkins (MIA), Dexter Lawrence (NYG), Jeffery Simmons (TEN), Jerry Tillery (LAC)
2018: Vita Vea (TB), Daron Payne (WAS), Taven Bryan (JAX)
2017:
2016: Sheldon Rankins (NOR), Kenny Clark (GB)
2015: Danny Shleton (CLE), Arik Armstead (SF), Malcolm Brown (NE)
2014: Aaron Donald (LAR), Dominique Easley (NE)
2013: Sheldon Richardson (NYJ), Star Lotulelei (CAR), Sharrif Floyd (MIN), Sylvester Williams (DEN)

We're talking about 6-8 guys in the last decade who are worth a first-round pick. They're just not worth it.

I don't know what criteria you are using to support your statement.

The value of a DT cannot be determined by statistics. Their job is to do the nasty work which allows others on the team to collect the stats.

Still, someone who may want to give it a try should consider including his team's opponent's average yards per carry or how many times an opponent can convert short yardage on 3rd and 4th downs. DT's make significant contributions in those areas.

 

[Pass2Run]

Since last summer, the Cowboys have used 3 draft picks to add 3 defensive tackles to the team.

1. The Cowboys traded a 2023 6th round pick for former NY Giants 2nd round pick DT Johnathan Hankins, plus a 2024 7th round pick.
2. The Cowboys drafted DT Mazi Smith in the 1st round of the 2023 draft
3. The Cowboys drafted DL Viliami Fehoko in the 4th round of the 2023 draft

Last year, the Cowboys spent a 5th round pick on DT John Ridgeway.

Go back a couple of seasons, and the Cowboys spent 3 more draft picks on defensive tackles in 2021.

1. The Cowboys drafted DT Osa Odighizuwa in the 3rd round of the 2021 draft
2. The Cowboys drafted DL Chauncey Golston in the 3rd round of the 2021 draft
3. The Cowboys drafted DT Quinton Bohana in the 6th round of the 2021 draft.

In 2020, the Cowboys also spent a 3rd round pick on DT Neville Gallimore.

Since Mike McCarthy took over as Head Coach, the Cowboys have spent 8 draft picks acquiring defensive tackles. Not a single Defensive tackle remains on the team from before McCarthy came to Dallas. Seven of those draft picks have been spent on DT since Dan Quinn became the Defensive Coordinator.

It seems as if the Cowboys are finally taking the Defensive Tackle position seriously...at long last.

Here are the draft resources spent on the Defensive Tackle position since McCarthy took over:

1st round - Mazi Smith
3rd round - Neville Gallimore, Osa Odighizuwa, Chauncey Golston
4th round - Viliami Fehoko
5th round - John Ridgeway
6th round - Quinton Bohana, Johnathan Hankins

That's a good post, cept Ridgeway was a 6th, Damone Clark was 5th.

 

[Pass2Run]

Yeah but was about 5 years too late. The Mazi type should have been gotten when Linehan was still here but he wanted an undersized person that was unusually strong and fast. The last time we had one we abused him and he screwed us. Get the player sized for the position. Imagine if we had a donald type player years ago. They wanted it but don’t want to pay for it. Looking for ways to save 10-15 million a year for a position of need. You need that clog. Just like we needed safety since Roy Williams left. Easier to try to find a big corner than a big DE that can play DT.

I get that undersized players can sometimes play, but why would you want an undersized player in the NFL?

Rod really did us dirty.

Honestly, we had it coming inviting his opinion on players Most coaches aren't scouts. Look at the offensive line coach who didn't want Tyler Smith.

I mean, in hindsight, that's stupid.

Trysten Hill was a desperation pick after getting demolished in the playoffs. The DT position under Garrett and Marinelli was a joke. There's a huge difference between being proactive and reactive. It was nothing but late round picks and low end FAs with the exception of Collins before they took Hill. There's not only a significant difference in addressing the position, but also evaluating it. That goes for the rest of the defense as well.

Great point, Biggie. I'll take it a step further. Where you draft is overrated. What matters is your evaluation.