Ricky Henderson vs. Pete Rose

[joseephuss]

I was listening to the Dan Patrick Show and he posed the question as to who would you want as your lead off hitter bewteen Rose and Henderson. I thought it was an interesting question.

I choose Henderson. He had a higher on base percentage. Once on base, it became a double because of his ability to steal bases. He also scored more runs. Those are the things I look for in a lead off hitter.

 

[jay cee]

I was listening to the Dan Patrick Show and he posed the question as to who would you want as your lead off hitter bewteen Rose and Henderson. I thought it was an interesting question.

I choose Henderson. He had a higher on base percentage. Once on base, it became a double because of his ability to steal bases. He also scored more runs. Those are the things I look for in a lead off hitter.

My first thought would be Henderson also. But I would not be surprised if someone could convince me that Rose would be my best option.

 

[Billy Bullocks]

As long as he gives me some good betting tips.

By the way, he should be in the HOF, regardless of his off field antics. As a player, he's a HOF. **** the character debate. Its not the moral HOF, its the baseball HOF. I dont care how much of a scumbag he is. The guy's play speaks for itself.

 

[joseephuss]

As long as he gives me some good betting tips.

By the way, he should be in the HOF, regardless of his off field antics. As a player, he's a HOF. **** the character debate. Its not the moral HOF, its the baseball HOF. I dont care how much of a scumbag he is. The guy's play speaks for itself.

I don't think gambling is considered a moral thing. The goal is to give it your best and try to win. I think everyone agrees that Charlie Hustle did that, but with his gambling problems that may not be the case.

Could he have bet against his own team and therefore thrown a game? Was he ever pressured to throw a game by a bookie or anything, like the Black Sox players or other players of that era? If you are throwing games, you are getting away from the basics of trying to win. Heck, players taking steroids are trying to get the best out of their bodies to win games.

My problem is that the actual evidence against Rose was all collected when he was a manager and not as a player. Although, it is pretty much assumed that he was a gambler when he was a player.

Nothing he did is worthy of a lifetime ban. Sure he should be punished, but the punishment doesn't fit the crime. He is more guilty of sporting a bad haircut for so long. By the way , I am not a Rose fan. I always thought he came across as a jerk, so I found it difficult to root for him.

I heard some talk on the radio the other day where a collector has a bat that Pete Rose used. They said the bat was corked. It was just glossed over and I haven't heard that before or since.

 

[Nors]

HOF is for great baseball players. Heaven is for good people.

My take on his gambling. If he gambled at casino's, football games, race tracks I care less. Parcells is a huge Gambler by that definition - as was Michael Jordan.

Now it gets dicey if he bet in baseball games as a manager as accused? I have 1 question and 1 question only. Did Pete Rose ever bet against his team? If the answer is yes, ban him. He either tried to or had ability to throw games.

In my heart of hearts I don't believe Pete Rose ever did that. Thats not his nature.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Rose admitted to betting on Reds games as a manager. It doesn't matter whether he bet for or against them, having a bet on today's game but not tommorrow's changed the way he managed i.e. leaving an injured Mario Soto in longer than he should have, essentially ending Soto's All-Star studded career but winning his bet.


Rose, like even every low A player, knew the consequences of gambling on baseball and ignored them. The integrity of the game is more important than Pete Rose.


The day he's reinstated is the day that I divest myself of baseball.



Unless you want Ty Cobb batting leadoff, Rickey Henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all time.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Rose admitted to betting on Reds games as a manager. It doesn't matter whether he bet for or against them, having a bet on today's game but not tommorrow's changed the way he managed i.e. leaving an injured Mario Soto in longer than he should have, essentially ending Soto's All-Star studded career but winning his bet.


Rose, like even every low A player, knew the consequences of gambling on baseball and ignored them. The integrity of the game is more important than Pete Rose.


The day he's reinstated is the day that I divest myself of baseball.



Unless you want Ty Cobb batting leadoff, Rickey Henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all time.

I would take Henderson.

I would also say that the integrity of the game should be more important then any player but clearly, it is not. That can be said for any big time sport these days. I hate Rose, even as a young person, growing up and watching Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine, I hated him. I hate him and he absolutly deserves to be in the hall of fame IMO. There are far worse in the hall of fame right now. Rose never bet on baseball as a player. His body of work, as a player is comparable to anybody who has ever played. I hate him but he should be in IMO. If were going to say that his actions are the reason he can't be in, then I'm OK with that but I think there should be one set of rules on that. One standard. I guess I kind of view it as hypocritical of Baseball. There are far, far worse in the HOF now. It can't be one set of rules for Pete Rose and one set for everybody else. If were going to keep him out, then lets keep all the sorry SOBs out who have done worse. If were going to look the other way on those others, then you can't keep Pete Rose out.

JMO

 

[joseephuss]

I would take Henderson.

I would also say that the integrity of the game should be more important then any player but clearly, it is not. That can be said for any big time sport these days. I hate Rose, even as a young person, growing up and watching Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine, I hated him. I hate him and he absolutly deserves to be in the hall of fame IMO. There are far worse in the hall of fame right now. Rose never bet on baseball as a player. His body of work, as a player is comparable to anybody who has ever played. I hate him but he should be in IMO. If were going to say that his actions are the reason he can't be in, then I'm OK with that but I think there should be one set of rules on that. One standard. I guess I kind of view it as hypocritical of Baseball. There are far, far worse in the HOF now. It can't be one set of rules for Pete Rose and one set for everybody else. If were going to keep him out, then lets keep all the sorry SOBs out who have done worse. If were going to look the other way on those others, then you can't keep Pete Rose out.

JMO

I wouldn't say that. No one ever investigated if Rose bet on baseball as a player. It was just during his time as a manager. I bet he did bet on baseball as a player. You are right. He should be in the HOF.

 

[trickblue]

Rose never bet on baseball as a player.

ABQ... with all due respect... you don't believe that do you?

 

[GTaylor]

I'd rather have Henderson, a rare guy who was a real threat to steal third not to mention he was a legitimate homerun threat. A real idiot personality-wise, but a good ballplayer nonetheless.

As far as Rose, his biggest mistake (Besides betting on his own team as manager) was living in denial all the years only to admit he lied to sell books. I think in time he should be allowed in (But not before Shoeless Joe), but not for at least 5-10 years.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I would take Henderson.

I would also say that the integrity of the game should be more important then any player but clearly, it is not. That can be said for any big time sport these days. I hate Rose, even as a young person, growing up and watching Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine, I hated him. I hate him and he absolutly deserves to be in the hall of fame IMO. There are far worse in the hall of fame right now. Rose never bet on baseball as a player. His body of work, as a player is comparable to anybody who has ever played. I hate him but he should be in IMO. If were going to say that his actions are the reason he can't be in, then I'm OK with that but I think there should be one set of rules on that. One standard. I guess I kind of view it as hypocritical of Baseball. There are far, far worse in the HOF now. It can't be one set of rules for Pete Rose and one set for everybody else. If were going to keep him out, then lets keep all the sorry SOBs out who have done worse. If were going to look the other way on those others, then you can't keep Pete Rose out.

JMO

There aren't two sets of rules, heck there isn't even one "set" of rules. There is one rule -- Bet on baseball and you're banned for life --. Everything else about the HOF is simply a guideline, witness the waiving of the "5 year rule" on occasion.

 

[Nors]

I'd take Rose over Henderson. Rose smashed 4400 hits and was always hitting over 200 a season as a .300+ hitter. Henderson was a career .269 hitter who never had 200 hits. I'm not going to get hung up on batting order. And on Rose's play? I've NEVER seen anyone play the game harder than Mr Hustle.

Rose hands down.

 

[jimmy40]

I'd take Rose over Henderson. Rose smashed 4400 hits and was always hitting over 200 a season as a .300+ hitter. Henderson was a career .269 hitter who never had 200 hits. I'm not going to get hung up on batting order. And on Rose's play? I've NEVER seen anyone play the game harder than Mr Hustle.

Rose hands down.

Rose wanted to win. Henderson was all about Henderson. He didn't even bother to learn some of his teamates names.

 

[Nors]

My 11 year old son is a baseball nut. He played over 75 games this year in the Northeast. He watches all the history on the dish.

Right wrong or indifferent his two favorite players of days gone by are Pete Rose and Fred Lynn. Favorite quote - if my uniform isn't dirty I haven't played the game right. This fall he ran over a 3rd baseman in a picle and jarred the ball out. When I asked him why, He was in my way. Legal play and what Rose was all about. Rose played the game hard - the way it is meant to be played.

Personality issues? Gambling? Sure - but don't make the mistake of slandering his game. He's one of the greatest baseball players that ever played this game.

 

[joseephuss]

I'd take Rose over Henderson. Rose smashed 4400 hits and was always hitting over 200 a season as a .300+ hitter. Henderson was a career .269 hitter who never had 200 hits. I'm not going to get hung up on batting order. And on Rose's play? I've NEVER seen anyone play the game harder than Mr Hustle.

Rose hands down.

Henderson was a .279 hitter. Still not .300, but better than .269. The point of a leadoff hitter is to get on base and get in scoring position. Henderson did that very well. His on base percentage is .399 and Rose also was good at .373. Once on base, Henderson got into scoring position by stealing the most bases in history with 1406(Rose 198). That led him to become the all time leader in runs scored with 2295(Rose 2165). You can't go wrong with either.

 

[jay cee]

Henderson was a .279 hitter. Still not .300, but better than .269. The point of a leadoff hitter is to get on base and get in scoring position. Henderson did that very well. His on base percentage is .399 and Rose also was good at .373. Once on base, Henderson got into scoring position by stealing the most bases in history with 1406(Rose 198). That led him to become the all time leader in runs scored with 2295(Rose 2165). You can't go wrong with either.

Wow, Rose was only 130 runs scored behind Henderson. You really can't go wrong with either.

I thought .269 was a little low for Henderson, thanks for clearing that up. I was too lazy to look it up myself.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Wow, Rose was only 130 runs scored behind Henderson. You really can't go wrong with either.

I thought .269 was a little low for Henderson, thanks for clearing that up. I was too lazy to look it up myself.

Just remember one simple rule. A certain poster will always post inaccuracies (then claim a typo or something) if it bolsters his simplistic argument. If he posts that it's raining, you'd better go to the window and have a look for yourself.

 

[jimmy40]

I was listening to the Dan Patrick Show and he posed the question as to who would you want as your lead off hitter bewteen Rose and Henderson. I thought it was an interesting question.

I choose Henderson. He had a higher on base percentage. Once on base, it became a double because of his ability to steal bases. He also scored more runs. Those are the things I look for in a lead off hitter.

Trivia question:

What happened the day Henderson broke the stolen base record and put his story on the back page?

 

[joseephuss]

Trivia question:

What happened the day Henderson broke the stolen base record and put his story on the back page?

Nolan threw another no hitter?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I wouldn't say that. No one ever investigated if Rose bet on baseball as a player. It was just during his time as a manager. I bet he did bet on baseball as a player. You are right. He should be in the HOF.

In fact, I believe the Giaomanti did investigate this. He tried to get all he could on Rose's betting habbits. Nothing that I am aware of has ever been proven. Now, I'm not saying he did or he didn't. I truth, I don't know but nothing has surfaced and this has been looked at pretty closely. Like I said before, I don't Rose. He's not what I would point to and say, "This is the kind of person that should represent Baseball." I just think that he deserves it. That's all.