Rumor: Bill Cowher

[ABQCOWBOY]

You must be thinking of a different player. James was terrible in the 4-3 plus making Ware a DE takes away his speed advantage.

I thought you said Barbie. I actually changed this post when I realized you said Bradie. No, I do think Bradie could play MLB or strong side. Heck, we could always trade Bradie and we would get offers. I know that we could probably send him to Miami right now.

As for Ware, I don't see that at all. I actually think he would be more effective because the OL would have to react to his first step every play instead of just when he lines up on the LOS. Haley was not very big either. There are lots of smaller quicker DEs who have success. I think Ware would be just fine.

 

[InmanRoshi]

And you do realize the nickel isn't the 4-3 right?

In the nickel the DL is purely pass rushing not trying to hold up against the run.
Totally different thing. Ware could do it because he is good enough to do most things but it wouldn't be his best position.

Freeney would probably be better served as a 3-4 OLB. Ware had 22 sacks last year, Freeney had 19.5 from 2006-2008. That beating of a DE takes a toll on smaller guys.

Simeon Rice was fortunate enough to play on some really good Tampa DLs and had Derrick Brooks behind him, but no one ever accused Simeon of being a run stopper.

And you do realize that Colts and Tampa run an overshifted 4 man line where the weakside DE plays in an overshifted 9 tech the entire game ... which is exactly what Ware plays for us in the nickel? The only thing that would change for Ware is he would get to do what he does best on every snap and wouldn't be used in pass coverage anymore. And Ratliff is the ideal 3 tech DT in an overshifted 4 man line. If the idea is putting your best players in position to make players, an overshifted 4-3 suits both Ware and Ratliff ideally. I mean, Brookings has been a pleasant surprise for us, but we should build a defense around our two 20-something Pro Bowl defensive lineman, not a soon to be 34 year old LB squeezing out one last good year before he retires.

We're going to have to do something, because Spears is a goner and we don't have a replacement.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No way. Spencer is awful now versus the run most times. It's hilarious that the coaching staff used that to prop him up when he was sackless because the guy gets abused out there. If we go 4-3 we'd have to use Bowen or Hatcher out there and draft a guy. Spencer could back up Ware at Weakside end. Snelling ran right past Spencer all day Sunday. Spencer get's blown out of the hole.

Carpenter isn't a decent LB anywhere on 1st and 2nd down. He just isn't an aggressive tackler. He's a solid nickel backer because he can cover.

We could be a 4-3 but it would be after serious personnel tweaking. Right now we have 1 Quick 4-3 DT and that's Ratliff and 1 legit 4-3 end in Ware who is better as an OLB because he gets so much wider.

For a 4-3 you want about 8 good DL, not 3-5.

Bradie isn't really fast enough to play in a 4-3. Brooking isn't as good in a 4-3 either. Our LB corps would be pretty bad in a 4-3.

I don't agree with you at all on Spencer. He's a perfect 43 DE IMO. The problem with Spencer is that he's having to learn to play OLB in a 34. In a 43, he would be doing exactly what he likes to do, which is force up field and crash or shed and chase.

Bradie doesn't have the sideline to sideline speed you would like but in a 43, he could easily scrape much easier and make plays. Heck, we had a guy named Eugene Lockhart who played MLB for us and he was much slower then Bradie yet he racked up tones of tackles for us on a bad team. We would have to figure sub for Bradie in obvious passing situations but it could be done. Brookings best years in Atlanta were in a 43, not a 34. either way, he could play MLB or SAM. He's older so I doubt he's long for the show either way. As for Ware, I just don't agree. He's basically a DE now. I like him in a 43 or 34. You just can't match that speed. Jason Williams has the kind of athleticisam to play Will or MLB in a 43. Butler could be a 3rd down rush OLB much more easily in a 43 then in a 34. All the young guys have been playing in a 43 much longer. Much more experince.

Our Interior should get better. Ratliff would be an outstanding 3 technique DT and Olshansky would play the 1. Spears could be used as the Strong Side DE or a 3.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And you do realize that Colts and Tampa run an overshifted 4 man line where the weakside DE plays in an overshifted 9 tech the entire game ... which is exactly what Ware plays for us in the nickel? The only thing that would change for Ware is he would get to do what he does best on every snap and wouldn't be used in pass coverage anymore. And Ratliff is the ideal 3 tech DT in an overshifted 4 man line. If the idea is putting your best players in position to make players, an overshifted 4-3 suits both Ware and Ratliff ideally.

We're going to have to do something, because Spears is a goner and we don't have a replacement.

Spears' best play was at LSU in a 43 over under scheme. Spears is probably not a starter but he could play 3 Tech or Strong Side DE.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Spears' best play was at LSU in a 43 over under scheme. Spears is probably not a starter but he could play 3 Tech or Strong Side DE.

Some 3-4 team is going to pay Spears a lot of money to be a strongside 3-4 DE. With so many teams now moving the 3-4, guys like Spears are now over-valued ... which is why Tyson Jackson goes with the 3rd pick in the draft.

 

[jterrell]

Bradie even played weakside 4-3 OLB his first two seasons in Dallas. Bradie could easily be a MLB in a 4-3, he would just be a 2 down one (Heck, if Fred Strickland and Jeremiah Trotter can start for 10 years at the position it doesn't exactly take an Olympic Sprinter) .

Both guys were straight ahead 2 gap LBs.
They could not have played in many schemes at all.

That Jim Johnson 4-3 was really a system in and of itself.

Bradie is not good moving laterally so the less he has to move sideline to sideline the better. Bradie was younger and lighter when he tried and was still borderline awful. He can't do anything with Tight Ends so is now limited to MLB.

The four 4-3 Pro Bowl Linebackers from 2008 were 240-250 pounds. The 250 pound guys were Ray Lewis and Demeko Ryans who was a strong safety in college.

 

[joseephuss]

No way. Spencer is awful now versus the run most times. It's hilarious that the coaching staff used that to prop him up when he was sackless because the guy gets abused out there. If we go 4-3 we'd have to use Bowen or Hatcher out there and draft a guy. Spencer could back up Ware at Weakside end. Snelling ran right past Spencer all day Sunday. Spencer get's blown out of the hole.

.

I didn't see Spencer get blown out of the hole. On Snelling's long run Spencer got too far upfield, which created a hole. That is not the same as getting blown out of the hole. He has been pretty strong against the run to his side.

 

[jterrell]

I don't agree with you at all on Spencer. He's a perfect 43 DE IMO. The problem with Spencer is that he's having to learn to play OLB in a 34. In a 43, he would be doing exactly what he likes to do, which is force up field and crash or shed and chase.

Bradie doesn't have the sideline to sideline speed you would like but in a 43, he could easily scrape much easier and make plays. Heck, we had a guy named Eugene Lockhart who played MLB for us and he was much slower then Bradie yet he racked up tones of tackles for us on a bad team. We would have to figure sub for Bradie in obvious passing situations but it could be done. Brookings best years in Atlanta were in a 43, not a 34. either way, he could play MLB or SAM. He's older so I doubt he's long for the show either way. As for Ware, I just don't agree. He's basically a DE now. I like him in a 43 or 34. You just can't match that speed. Jason Williams has the kind of athleticisam to play Will or MLB in a 43. Butler could be a 3rd down rush OLB much more easily in a 43 then in a 34. All the young guys have been playing in a 43 much longer. Much more experince.

Our Interior should get better. Ratliff would be an outstanding 3 technique DT and Olshansky would play the 1. Spears could be used as the Strong Side DE or a 3.

The problem is the way you describe the 4-3 DE position. That's just wrong.
4-3 DE's have to hold the point of attack against the run which is where Spencer struggles mightily. They have to engage then shed and Spencer can barely pass rush right now relying on just looping out wide. He is at his best in space not in tight against OL. The one thing Spencer does really well right now by OLB standards is drop into the flats. He is a solid open field tackler and he has some speed. He doesn't have any discernible pass rush moves be they bull rush or speed moves.

Spears could be a strong side DE but he would be a much better 4-3 DT. He doesn't show any inclination to lose weight or provide anything other than a bull rush.When Spears was drafted he was noted as being a perfect 3-4 DE. In fact that's why we took him round 1. His value is right where he is, especially since this is the best he has ever played. I imagine he gets re-signed here.

I played 3-4 OLB and was forced into a DE type role in high school. To say that sucked is an understatement.

I almost guarantee you this defense wouldn't go heavy 4-3 without 2 or 3 changes in the starting line up. That may be the case even if we stay 3-4 but it's 100% guaranteed if we move to a 4-3.

More teams are going 3-4 because it is a better defense in the opinions of the teams going that way. The versatility of the 3-4 which gives you built in nickel pass rushers just works. Our 3-4 has been pretty good and that's without really strong 3-4 OLBs aside from Ware.

 

[jterrell]

I didn't see Spencer get blown out of the hole. On Snelling's long run Spencer got too far upfield, which created a hole. That is not the same as getting blown out of the hole. He has been pretty strong against the run to his side.

He gets too far upfield because that's where he gets shoved by the blocker.
That's awful, awful technique, especially if you aren't getting sacks to make up for poor run play. He has not been good against the run at all. We are rated 19th in the league against the run and just about every big run we have given up I've looked at Spencer getting destroyed.

He is a young player at a tough position but he is not good right now at all.

Ware pushed up field as much as anyone but he gets around the blocker and can attack the ball carrier, not sit 10 yards out of the hole the rest of the play. It is night and day. Anyone thinking he is a decent fit as a 3-4 DE is going to be playing him on the weakside. There is nothing at all about his game that fits in a 4-3 strongside DE.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The problem is the way you describe the 4-3 DE position. That's just wrong.
4-3 DE's have to hold the point of attack against the run which is where Spencer struggles mightily. They have to engage then shed and Spencer can barely pass rush right now relying on just looping out wide. He is at his best in space not in tight against OL. The one thing Spencer does really well right now by OLB standards is drop into the flats. He is a solid open field tackler and he has some speed. He doesn't have any discernible pass rush moves be they bull rush or speed moves.

Spears could be a strong side DE but he would be a much better 4-3 DT. He doesn't show any inclination to lose weight or provide anything other than a bull rush.When Spears was drafted he was noted as being a perfect 3-4 DE. In fact that's why we took him round 1. His value is right where he is, especially since this is the best he has ever played. I imagine he gets re-signed here.

I played 3-4 OLB and was forced into a DE type role in high school. To say that sucked is an understatement.

I almost guarantee you this defense wouldn't go heavy 4-3 without 2 or 3 changes in the starting line up. That may be the case even if we stay 3-4 but it's 100% guaranteed if we move to a 4-3.

More teams are going 3-4 because it is a better defense in the opinions of the teams going that way. The versatility of the 3-4 which gives you built in nickel pass rushers just works. Our 3-4 has been pretty good and that's without really strong 3-4 OLBs aside from Ware.

As a Strong Side DE in a 43, Spencer would gain weight. It would only be natural for him to do this. In pass rush situations, his responsability would be to rush upfield and crash. In running situations, his responsability would be to shed and chase. You can call it Hold Point of Attach if you wish but it's essentially the same thing. He strings it out or turns it back in and you would like to see this done once he's shed his blocker. I agree with you that he's done a nice job in coverage but it should be that same agility that allows him to chase down the line.

Spears would probably be more valuable in trade, I agree. However, I would not give him away. If we can't get good value, he's pretty valuable to us because he could probably play three DL positions in a 43. In a pinch, he could probably give you a few snaps at the 3Tech. I would not play him there to much because I don't think he could last but for a few snaps, probably.

 

[joseephuss]

He gets too far upfield because that's where he gets shoved by the blocker.
That's awful, awful technique, especially if you aren't getting sacks to make up for poor run play. He has not been good against the run at all. We are rated 19th in the league against the run and just about every big run we have given up I've looked at Spencer getting destroyed.

He is a young player at a tough position but he is not good right now at all.

Ware pushed up field as much as anyone but he gets around the blocker and can attack the ball carrier, not sit 10 yards out of the hole the rest of the play. It is night and day. Anyone thinking he is a decent fit as a 3-4 DE is going to be playing him on the weakside. There is nothing at all about his game that fits in a 4-3 strongside DE.

I don't see it the same way. He may be using poor technique by trying to run around blocks or not recognizing the play and getting upfield too much. That is different than getting destroyed.

Dallas is giving up 109.3 rushing yards per game, which ranks 16th. That number is inflated by the first game. Since then they are allowing 96.2 rushing yards per game, which would rank 11th.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't see it the same way. He may be using poor technique by trying to run around blocks or not recognizing the play and getting upfield too much. That is different than getting destroyed.

Dallas is giving up 109.3 rushing yards per game, which ranks 16th. That number is inflated by the first game. Since then they are allowing 96.2 rushing yards per game, which would rank 11th.

I agree with you Josee. I think in a 43, we would see Spencer playing at 280 or 285 as opposed to 260 or whatever he is playing at now. At Purdue, Spencer played at 265 or so and he was fairly dominant in the Big 10. Now, certainly that's not the same as the Pros but the Big 10, so far as line play, is as good as it gets in college IMO.