Running game is why the defense looks better

brooksey1 said:
To sit here and say a fresher defense has not helped our defense is a big stretch.
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Like I said, in points per game it has helped. Points per drive is another story. The drives we've faced in the first half tell that story by themselves.
 
percyhoward said:
Like I said, in points per game it has helped. Points per drive is another story. The drives we've faced in the first half tell that story by themselves.
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So on our second defensive possession in the first half, after let's say a 11 play 7 minute drive by the offense, our rested defense has no advantage Vs. a three and out by our offense?
 
jobberone said:
People seem to forget that observation is the basis for science. But I'm as guilty as others for getting into stats. You need both but your eyes are keen instruments.
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I like to think of it as science explains what your eyes are telling you.

As for the "freshness" attributing to success of the defense. Percy and Brooks are both arguing a similar point, less possessions = less points/yards/etc. I think Percy is insinuating that the numbers kinda show the "freshness" metric (as far as offensive TOP relating to defensive efficiency) as being overrated, at least as far as efficiency. The PPD analysis kinda shows that to be true, but realistically I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as perpetuating either opinion in analysis, that's going to be an impossible endeavor. The first half efficiency could actually be a result of "freshness" (can we trademark that?), as Percy has pointed out that our defense does play better in the first half. One could argue, hypothetically, that is a point that proves "freshness" is an important part of the defense's efficiency.

On the other hand, there's no real way to determine the truth based on numbers, as games aren't played in a vacuum. Gameplans adjust, and the less efficient 2nd half could be a result of our opponents adjusting, the fact we had a good gameplan in the first half, freshness, etc. I'd be interested to see, on average, how many teams are actually *more* efficient on defense in the 2nd half.

Interesting discussion though. Personally, I think it's a given that the offense's TOP is a factor for our defense, I mean football is an organic game where 3 phases are in equilibrium, each affecting each other to at least a minor degree. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

I do think the "freshness" facet is overrated though, to a degree. If your defense isn't tired then more "rest" isn't going to make them much better.

I think one really underrated aspect of the offensive TOP is the fact that the longer the offense is on the field, the more time our defensive coaches have to adjust and coach the players. That could definitely be a reason why our defense continues to play consistently well, and not so much the extra rest.
 
gmoney112 said:
I like to think of it as science explains what your eyes are telling you.

As for the "freshness" attributing to success of the defense. Percy and Brooks are both arguing a similar point, less possessions = less points/yards/etc. I think Percy is insinuating that the numbers kinda show the "freshness" metric (as far as offensive TOP relating to defensive efficiency) as being overrated, at least as far as efficiency. The PPD analysis kinda shows that to be true, but realistically I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as perpetuating either opinion in analysis, that's going to be an impossible endeavor. The first half efficiency could actually be a result of "freshness" (can we trademark that?), as Percy has pointed out that our defense does play better in the first half. One could argue, hypothetically, that is a point that proves "freshness" is an important part of the defense's efficiency.

On the other hand, there's no real way to determine the truth based on numbers, as games aren't played in a vacuum. Gameplans adjust, and the less efficient 2nd half could be a result of our opponents adjusting, the fact we had a good gameplan in the first half, freshness, etc. I'd be interested to see, on average, how many teams are actually *more* efficient on defense in the 2nd half.

Interesting discussion though. Personally, I think it's a given that the offense's TOP is a factor for our defense, I mean football is an organic game where 3 phases are in equilibrium, each affecting each other to at least a minor degree. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

I do think the "freshness" facet is overrated though, to a degree. If your defense isn't tired then more "rest" isn't going to make them much better.

I think one really underrated aspect of the offensive TOP is the fact that the longer the offense is on the field, the more time our defensive coaches have to adjust and coach the players. That could definitely be a reason why our defense continues to play consistently well, and not so much the extra rest.
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On the nosey as a favorite poster of mine used to say. Don't think it's underrated but it bears saying again. The other offense can't score when we have the ball.
 
jobberone said:
On the nosey as a favorite poster of mine used to say. Don't think it's underrated but it bears saying again. The other offense can't score when we have the ball.
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Bingo. The points per game effect is obvious.

That ain't the same as points per drive.
 
brooksey1 said:
So on our second defensive possession in the first half, after let's say a 11 play 7 minute drive by the offense, our rested defense has no advantage Vs. a three and out by our offense?
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Why not base our understanding on observation of real games, rather than hypothetical ones? Just gather evidence, and then draw conclusions.

We're obviously good in the first half, when the rest of the league's defenses are as fresh as we are. That's the evidence. What would explain that? There are many examples of teams with offenses that control the clock, and defenses that can't get off the field. What makes our defense better than those teams'?
 
percyhoward said:
Why not base our understanding on observation of real games, rather than hypothetical ones? Just gather evidence, and then draw conclusions.

We're obviously good in the first half, when the rest of the league's defenses are as fresh as we are. That's the evidence. What would explain that? There are many examples of teams with offenses that control the clock, and defenses that can't get off the field. What makes our defense better than those teams'?
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Our game plan is working. Their QB has a hangover.

We are fresher than their fresh?? :)

We are executing better. We are out working them. Among many reasons.
 
gmoney112 said:
The first half efficiency could actually be a result of "freshness" (can we trademark that?), as Percy has pointed out that our defense does play better in the first half.
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It wasn't the efficiency that caught my attention, it was how that efficiency compares with other first-half defenses. It's much better than most.

A defense that supposedly gets a boost in points allowed per drive (relative to other teams) should be gaining its ground on other defenses when those defenses are feeling the most fatigue. There is no way that this would be happening more in the first half of a football game than in the second. And yet the first half is when this defense plays the best, relative to other teams.
 
jobberone said:
Our game plan is working. Their QB has a hangover.

We are fresher than their fresh?? :)

We are executing better. We are out working them. Among many reasons.
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After seven games, I'll buy the first, fourth, and fifth reasons.

Maybe even the third, because they say winning is great deodorant.
 
brooksey1 said:
So on our second defensive possession in the first half, after let's say a 11 play 7 minute drive by the offense, our rested defense has no advantage Vs. a three and out by our offense?
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Did the defense have a three-and-out on the opponent's first possession, or did it allow a 12-play, 8-minute drive? Were there any TV timeouts or other clock stoppages between the defense's last play and its first play on the next possession? How long was the offense's 7-minute drive in real time --seven minutes, 30 minutes or something in between? How many defensive players rotated in and out on each play, and how many total snaps did each player play? How far did each player have to run on each play? How often did any of the defensive linemen faced double-teams, and how many snaps did those players each play?

It's kind of silly to think that we have only 11 defensive players who must play every snap on defense, and the only time they ever get to rest is when our offense is on the field and the game clock is running.
 
percyhoward said:
It wasn't the efficiency that caught my attention, it was how that efficiency compares with other first-half defenses. It's much better than most.

A defense that supposedly gets a boost in points allowed per drive (relative to other teams) should be gaining its ground on other defenses when those defenses are feeling the most fatigue. There is no way that this would be happening more in the first half of a football game than in the second. And yet the first half is when this defense plays the best, relative to other teams.
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Your assumption discounts the fact that fatigue is a non-factor or perhaps a main contributing factor in how a platoon system works in the first half. You can outwork a fresh guy on offense in the first half. I don't think that works in rushing to the outside early on but it certainly does if you're bullrushing someone or just fighting with your hands. So there is something to being a Whirling Durbish. Not saying that's all there is as this is a complicated topic. I just don't know if you can disgard the whole notion of outworking the offense in the first half. Knowing you can come out when tired and another guy come in and work allows you to go all out from the get go.
 
A team is what their record is. And this team is a totally different team than last year. whether it's because of the run game or a jobu shrine stuffed within Pedro cerranos locker.
This is dope!
 
dukecityspecialist said:
A team is what their record is. And this team is a totally different team than last year. whether it's because of the run game or a jobu shrine stuffed within Pedro cerranos locker.
This is dope!
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So we appear to be what the general perception is what we appear to be. :D
 
percyhoward said:
What makes our defense better than those teams'?
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Personally I think its Rolando McClain, he just flat out intimidates people.

All in all I see your points but think your research definitely needs a little more lab time buddy, good talk though. Let me know what you come up with ;)

Go Cowboys.
 
jobberone said:
Your assumption discounts the fact that fatigue is a non-factor or perhaps a main contributing factor in how a platoon system works in the first half. You can outwork a fresh guy on offense in the first half. I don't think that works in rushing to the outside early on but it certainly does if you're bullrushing someone or just fighting with your hands. So there is something to being a Whirling Durbish. Not saying that's all there is as this is a complicated topic. I just don't know if you can disgard the whole notion of outworking the offense in the first half. Knowing you can come out when tired and another guy come in and work allows you to go all out from the get go.
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Not seeing how this relates to increased offensive TOP's effect on defensive performance per drive.
 
brooksey1 said:
Personally I think its Rolando McClain, he just flat out intimidates people.
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Then I'll go out on a limb and say you're not of the opinion that the defense just "looks better" because of the running game, and is "really not much better than last year."
 
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