Running the Seattle Defense

[supercowboy8]

Looks like Kiffin is going to run more of the Seattle type defense which makes me happy. It matches our players much better. Seattle defense is a lot like a 3-4 but with the DL shifted over and the WOLB plays DE. Hatcher can play the end like red bryant and move inside on the nickel. Ratliff would be perfect to play where Mebane plays, Mebane plays the 1 and 3 tech. Lessimore is all we have to play the one where Branch is lined up now that Brent will most likely not be back. May need to find a player to rotate at this position.

Church is very similar to Chancellor and we have two press man corners which seattle uses also. We have two LBs that can tackle, has speed and can cover much like Seattle has and are used in a 3-4. The two other spots we are looking for are a Earl Thomas type safety and a SOLB like KJ Wright. We have the SOLB in Spencer, but can we keep him. Spencer would play the same role as Wright and Irving plays in Seattle and Miller plays in Denver. All comes up to play DE on nickel but can still drop in coverage and very good vs the run.

Kiffin is telling players to watch Seattle tape, which is the reason why I saying we are going to run the same style defense as Seattle. If we were going to run the Tampa 2 base scheme then he would tell players to watch Chicago tape.

We aren't that much off from having the starting players to run this defense. We need that free roaming CD like Thomas, SOLB like Wright(Spencer), big one tech NT like Branch and DO depth.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

Well thought out post, but I have a hard time seeing any similarity between Seattle's DL and our own.

Hatcher is like Bryant? Not even close. Completely different players, and while Bryant is listed at 18 pounds heavier than Hatcher, I'd be stunned if there was less than 25 lbs. separating the two.

Alan Branch is a 325 lb. NT-type playing the 1-tech for them. Who's that guy here? We don't have one. Rat and Lissemore are too light, and Brian Price at 303 lbs. is a bit light and who knows if he can be counted on to contribute.

Even their 3-tech, Brandon Mebane, is 311 lbs. and is significantly bigger than our 3-tech options.

I'm not saying I advocate matching Seattle's size... as a matter of fact I'd much prefer a SDE that can move and rush the passer much better than Red Bryant. My only point is that we literally average about 15 lbs. lighter on average across 3/4 of our DL as it stands now. We're at a serious size and talent deficit.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Alan Branch isn't a nose tackle for them. He's a 3 tech gap shooter because he naturally plays high and sucks at anchoring at the point of attack (which is why he was a failure as a two gapper in Arizona's 3-4) . Brandon Mebane is their 1 tech who at 310 lbs. occupies the guard and center gap just by being quick off the snap and short/squatty enough to use leverage to anchor.

If the Cowboys ran a similar 4-3 over/under base, I'm assuming the translation would be as follows...

"Leo" 9-tech - Chris Clemons - > Ware

1 tech - Brandon Mebane --> Ratliff

3 Tech - Alan Branch --> Hatcher

5 Tech - Red Bryant --> Crawford

 

[JeffInDC]

Well thought out post, but I have a hard time seeing any similarity between Seattle's DL and our own.

Hatcher is like Bryant? Not even close. Completely different players, and while Bryant is listed at 18 pounds heavier than Hatcher, I'd be stunned if there was less than 25 lbs. separating the two.

Alan Branch is a 325 lb. NT-type playing the 1-tech for them. Who's that guy here? We don't have one. Rat and Lissemore are too light, and Brian Price at 303 lbs. is a bit light and who knows if he can be counted on to contribute.

Even their 3-tech, Brandon Mebane, is 311 lbs. and is significantly bigger than our 3-tech options.

I'm not saying I advocate matching Seattle's size... as a matter of fact I'd much prefer a SDE that can move and rush the passer much better than Red Bryant. My only point is that we literally average about 15 lbs. lighter on average across 3/4 of our DL as it stands now. We're at a serious size and talent deficit.

Agreed. Dallas' personnel is closer to the '96-'08 Bucs than the current Seahawks, ESPECIALLY the Dline. Currently (w/o Spencer), this is my guess at the starting D-line:

RE - Ware (255-260)
1T - Rat (295-300)
3T - Hatcher (290-300)
LE - Crawford (275-285)

And, of course the line gets even smaller with Spencer's return - because there is NO WAY they're going ot pay him $10M to play LB when Ware is already making mega bucks. I think Spencer can bulk back up to his combine/college playing weight of around 265.

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

Why are you calling it the Seattle Defense when it's Seattle whose running a variant of Kiffin's defense?

Plus nowhere is Kiffin quoted as saying they will run what Seattle runs to a tee; he merely instructed players to watch Seattle film to get AN IDEA of what the new scheme might be like.

EDIT: I highly doubt that Kiffin is watching Seattle film and taking notes on it. I do believe he will implement his system in minicamps/training camp and add some new wrinkles in to better deal with today's offenses, especially those that are option-happy.

That's how the Tampa-2 came to be in the first place. By Seasons end we can very well be watching a new variant of his defense the NFL has not seen before and we very well may be calling it "The Dallas 4-3".

 

[WV Cowboy]

That's how the Tampa-2 came to be in the first place. By Seasons end we can very well be watching a new variant of his defense the NFL has not seen before and we very well may be calling it "The Dallas 4-3".

I agree, because I said the very same thing when he was hired.

I kind of wish we had never mentioned Seattle though.
I don't want to try and be like some other team, .. that never works out.

 

[conner01]

i don't think he is trying to be like seattle. they run a fom of his defense. i think he wants the players to see what can be done out of the tapma 2 style defense
there can be many variants of a defense

 

[xwalker]

Alan Branch isn't a nose tackle for them. He's a 3 tech gap shooter because he naturally plays high and sucks at anchoring at the point of attack (which is why he was a failure as a two gapper in Arizona's 3-4) . Brandon Mebane is their 1 tech who at 310 lbs. occupies the guard and center gap just by being quick off the snap and short/squatty enough to use leverage to anchor.






If the Cowboys ran a similar 4-3 over/under base, I'm assuming the translation would be as follows...

"Leo" 9-tech - Chris Clemons - > Ware

1 tech - Brandon Mebane --> Ratliff

3 Tech - Alan Branch --> Hatcher

5 Tech - Red Bryant --> Crawford

Excellent, excellent post.

 

[Echo9]

I agree, because I said the very same thing when he was hired.

I kind of wish we had never mentioned Seattle though.
I don't want to try and be like some other team, .. that never works out.

I think mentioning the Seattle defense is sort of PR move to fans. Looking back on the 2012 season, it's the Seattle game that stands out to me. Sure, we lost 8 games but to me that one was the game where we just got punched in mouth again and again. Coming off the high of beating the Giants and watching that was pretty rough and I'm pretty confident that I'm not the only one who felt that way.

To me, this is the Cowboys front office telling it's fan base the following:

"Hey folks, remember when we got pummeled and embarrassed by that Seattle defense last year? Well, that's what we are going to turn our D into. That's why we made these changes."

It gives the fans something to hope for in 2013. Whether they can come close to pulling it off is another story and really not relevant yet.

 

[Omegasupreme]

EDIT: I highly doubt that Kiffin is watching Seattle film and taking notes on it. I do believe he will implement his system in minicamps/training camp and add some new wrinkles in to better deal with today's offenses, especially those that are option-happy.

That's how the Tampa-2 came to be in the first place. By Seasons end we can very well be watching a new variant of his defense the NFL has not seen before and we very well may be calling it "The Dallas 4-3".

Exactly. Said it better, have, I couldn't, myself.

Hope the offense follows suit and becomes a form that follows function.

 

[supercowboy8]

Well thought out post, but I have a hard time seeing any similarity between Seattle's DL and our own.

Hatcher is like Bryant? Not even close. Completely different players, and while Bryant is listed at 18 pounds heavier than Hatcher, I'd be stunned if there was less than 25 lbs. separating the two.

Alan Branch is a 325 lb. NT-type playing the 1-tech for them. Who's that guy here? We don't have one. Rat and Lissemore are too light, and Brian Price at 303 lbs. is a bit light and who knows if he can be counted on to contribute.

Even their 3-tech, Brandon Mebane, is 311 lbs. and is significantly bigger than our 3-tech options.

I'm not saying I advocate matching Seattle's size... as a matter of fact I'd much porefer a SDE that can move and rush the passer much better than Red Bryant. My only point is that we literally average about 15 lbs. lighter on average across 3/4 of our DL as it stands now. We're at a serious size and talent deficit.

Your looking at wiegth as i am lookig at the way they play.
Hatched is a bigger player who played de in a 34 and cab plag SDE the way bryant plays SDE. Never said anything about being the same size.

 

[Omegasupreme]

Looks like Kiffin is going to run more of the Seattle type defense which makes me happy. It matches our players much better. Seattle defense is a lot like a 3-4 but with the DL shifted over and the WOLB plays DE. Hatcher can play the end like red bryant and move inside on the nickel. Ratliff would be perfect to play where Mebane plays, Mebane plays the 1 and 3 tech. Lessimore is all we have to play the one where Branch is lined up now that Brent will most likely not be back. May need to find a player to rotate at this position.

Church is very similar to Chancellor and we have two press man corners which seattle uses also. We have two LBs that can tackle, has speed and can cover much like Seattle has and are used in a 3-4. The two other spots we are looking for are a Earl Thomas type safety and a SOLB like KJ Wright. We have the SOLB in Spencer, but can we keep him. Spencer would play the same role as Wright and Irving plays in Seattle and Miller plays in Denver. All comes up to play DE on nickel but can still drop in coverage and very good vs the run.

Kiffin is telling players to watch Seattle tape, which is the reason why I saying we are going to run the same style defense as Seattle. If we were going to run the Tampa 2 base scheme then he would tell players to watch Chicago tape.

We aren't that much off from having the starting players to run this defense. We need that free roaming CD like Thomas, SOLB like Wright(Spencer), big one tech NT like Branch and DO depth.

Glad you started this thread. It never sat right with me that Jerry justified the Ryan firing by citing the Seattle and Chicago games. Sometimes Jerry speak is a blatant projection of his feelings and I think the incongruity of his Ryan-firing games demonstrate that he watched with an envious appetite as the Bears and Seattle defenses dominated Dallas to the point that Chicago was almost toying with each Dallas effort like a stunned mouse to a cat.

I think Jerry was coveting.

So he went out and bought the Bears defense and would not surprise me if he sought DBs and linemen similar to Seattle's. In the Bear and Seahawk games, Garrett lost the ability to score and Ryan lost Jerry's interest in him.

 

[cowboysooner]

Bryant 2 gaps alot as a 5 technique. We dont have a player capable of doing that unless Coleman comes back or maybe Spears.

If you think about how disruptive interior pressure is it makes sense. Pressure the guards and left tackle and have your best run player over right tackle where many team's best run blocker is. Hatcher can do that. Ratliff can do it if he is here.

BTW, their SAM is lining up like Spencer did most times against 2 te-hbacks on the same side.

 

[xwalker]

Bryant 2 gaps alot as a 5 technique. We dont have a player capable of doing that unless Coleman comes back or maybe Spears.

If you think about how disruptive interior pressure is it makes sense. Pressure the guards and left tackle and have your best run player over right tackle where many team's best run blocker is. Hatcher can do that. Ratliff can do it if he is here.

BTW, their SAM is lining up like Spencer did most times against 2 te-hbacks on the same side.

When he does 2-gap, it's most often between an OT and TE.

 

[xwalker]

I think mentioning the Seattle defense is sort of PR move to fans. Looking back on the 2012 season, it's the Seattle game that stands out to me. Sure, we lost 8 games but to me that one was the game where we just got punched in mouth again and again. Coming off the high of beating the Giants and watching that was pretty rough and I'm pretty confident that I'm not the only one who felt that way.

To me, this is the Cowboys front office telling it's fan base the following:

"Hey folks, remember when we got pummeled and embarrassed by that Seattle defense last year? Well, that's what we are going to turn our D into. That's why we made these changes."

It gives the fans something to hope for in 2013. Whether they can come close to pulling it off is another story and really not relevant yet.

The Cowboys have tried similar things in the past like when Jerry named the player that would have been drafted with the 2nd round pick that was traded to acquire Claiborne; however, this came out to the media in a Radio interview with Brandon Carr.

 

[InmanRoshi]

There's nothing "PR" about mentioning Seattle. Monte Kiffin was the mentor and biggest influence to both Gus Bradley and Pete Carroll. They also employed a lot of 3-4 elements into their defense at Seattle, which would make sense for the Cowboys to emmulate since they're transitioning from a 3-4 and have been drafting players to fit into a 3-4 for the last 7 years.

Also, if they are looking to emmulate more of what Gus Bradley did in Seattle, I wouldn't get too caught up on projecting who goes where. Seattle used a ton of different looks and a ton of different sub packages, and a lot of role players who played 12-15 snaps per game along the front 7 depending on a specific role in a specific package. Do you want Rob Callaway playing 60 snaps a game for you as an everydown 5 Tech? No. Could he play 12-15 snaps for you in a specific package as a 5-Tech? Probably. I think mainly what you look for in the front 7 are versatile players who can do a lot of different things, which is why guys like Sheldon Richardson and Shariff Floyd make sense in the first round given that they played multiple techs and positions in college.

 

[Idgit]

Excellent, excellent post.

Yep..

 

[Wood]

Looks like Kiffin is going to run more of the Seattle type defense which makes me happy. It matches our players much better. Seattle defense is a lot like a 3-4 but with the DL shifted over and the WOLB plays DE. Hatcher can play the end like red bryant and move inside on the nickel. Ratliff would be perfect to play where Mebane plays, Mebane plays the 1 and 3 tech. Lessimore is all we have to play the one where Branch is lined up now that Brent will most likely not be back. May need to find a player to rotate at this position.

Church is very similar to Chancellor and we have two press man corners which seattle uses also. We have two LBs that can tackle, has speed and can cover much like Seattle has and are used in a 3-4. The two other spots we are looking for are a Earl Thomas type safety and a SOLB like KJ Wright. We have the SOLB in Spencer, but can we keep him. Spencer would play the same role as Wright and Irving plays in Seattle and Miller plays in Denver. All comes up to play DE on nickel but can still drop in coverage and very good vs the run.

Kiffin is telling players to watch Seattle tape, which is the reason why I saying we are going to run the same style defense as Seattle. If we were going to run the Tampa 2 base scheme then he would tell players to watch Chicago tape.

We aren't that much off from having the starting players to run this defense. We need that free roaming CD like Thomas, SOLB like Wright(Spencer), big one tech NT like Branch and DO depth.

you pointed out the first problem with it...Hatcher playing Red Bryant spot. They are not even in same stratosphere in terms of production. Earl Thomas is light years ahead of any safety on Dallas. 3/4 of Seattle backfield (CB & S) are over 6'2" and tenacious. So sure..Kiffin can say all he wants about scheme he will play but when you have 1st round draft picks like Clayborne who wanna stay 'clean' during the play - you will be hard pressed to produce similar results as Seattle. They are straight up thug defense.

 

[supercowboy8]

you pointed out the first problem with it...Hatcher playing Red Bryant spot. They are not even in same stratosphere in terms of production. Earl Thomas is light years ahead of any safety on Dallas. 3/4 of Seattle backfield (CB & S) are over 6'2" and tenacious. So sure..Kiffin can say all he wants about scheme he will play but when you have 1st round draft picks like Clayborne who wanna stay 'clean' during the play - you will be hard pressed to produce similar results as Seattle. They are straight up thug defense.

You must not have read the entire post. Never said Bryant and Hatchet are one in the same or talked about size. I said Hatcher can play the position of SDE.

Also I said we need a Thomas like FS.

also Carr and Claiborne are press corners.

 

[InmanRoshi]

you pointed out the first problem with it...Hatcher playing Red Bryant spot. They are not even in same stratosphere in terms of production.

Agreed.

Jason Hatcher is a much, much better player than Red Bryant.