Rushing to help the Defense

[visionary]

We can both provide mountains of anecdotal evidence, but to what end? It doesn't make a lot of sense to go back and forth citing smaller pieces of the picture when we already have the whole picture.

Percy I respect the fact that you and Adam provide a lot of statistical information to support your posts. I presume you will acknowledge that NFL teams do a ton of research about the pros and cons of what they are doing or planning to do and have research staffs dedicated to this. They also spend their entire lives learning about football and try to decipher what works and what does not. They also have limited time and would not waste it on stuff they did not think was important

If these are true, why does every NFL coach say, we want to stop their run game

Or

We have to establish the run

Or

Our first priority is to stop their run game

The same is true of players

Why don't they say that they want to stop the passing game and don't care about the running game since it has no correlation with winning?

Why do all these coaches and teams and players waste their time on this unimportant stuff instead of focusing researching and talking about the important stuff ?

Are they ignorant? Or lying to us?

 

[Idgit]

You have got to be kidding....have you ever watched football?....teams get gassed all the time, especially after getting pounded by the big uglies up front

Not kidding. I've both watched and played. And I've got a pretty good idea what sort of conditioning world class athletes have in order to play their 60 minutes of regulation football each week. Not including substitutions. Or the fact that offenses get tired, too.

Sure, I hear commentators saying that defenses get worn out just like the rest of us do. That doesn't mean I believe it. A lot of times people say it without regard for how many defensive snaps have even been played.

 

[Nightman]

Not kidding. I've both watched and played. And I've got a pretty good idea what sort of conditioning world class athletes have in order to play their 60 minutes of regulation football each week. Not including substitutions. Or the fact that offenses get tired, too.

Sure, I hear commentators saying that defenses get worn out just like the rest of us do. That doesn't mean I believe it. A lot of times people say it without regard for how many defensive snaps have even been played.

Again I'll take the players' word for it

http://www.phillyvoice.com/cowboys-defense-was-gassed-second-half-against-eagles/

 

[Idgit]

Again I'll take the players' word for it

http://www.phillyvoice.com/cowboys-defense-was-gassed-second-half-against-eagles/

You're free to take their word for it, though note he's talking about tempo and not conditioning. Those aren't the same things.

As far as this gif goes, Jones slips and falls. Wilcox takes a bad angle. News at 11. Again, that's not conditioning. The fact that the dillweed from the Philly Voice thinks the slip had to do with conditioning doesn't mean anything. I'll grant that McClain and Hardy are the players I was thinking about when I mentioned that some individual guys might need to substitute when they're not in good enough shape, but that wasn't a factor in this play, either. McClain bit on the play action and took himself out.

 

[percyhoward]

Percy I respect the fact that you and Adam provide a lot of statistical information to support your posts. I presume you will acknowledge that NFL teams do a ton of research about the pros and cons of what they are doing or planning to do and have research staffs dedicated to this. They also spend their entire lives learning about football and try to decipher what works and what does not. They also have limited time and would not waste it on stuff they did not think was important.

I point out that ball control only works if you have a lead, and that means I think the running game isn't important?

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/the-new-poison-passing-game-explodes.309981/

In the first 8 games, defenses played pass, and we ran all over them. We did not consistently impose our will with the run game, and in fact we ran into trouble late in games whenever we had the lead and were trying to chew up clock. By the second half of the season, defenses had adjusted and were playing run more, and the passing game benefited. Predictably, our rushing average went down because, again, we didn't consistently run well against defenses that were expecting run. Fortunately, that didn't matter because we had the league's best pass offense.

Obviously the running game is important. When we committed to the run in 2014, it helped the entire team. But that success wasn't based on controlling the clock with a dominating run game. It was based on making defenses play honest.

 

[percyhoward]

What universal truth can you glean from those 5 lines of data????

If you look at these two lists, and actually think about them, something will start to become clear.

Top 5 TOP offenses
1. Atlanta 3:05
2. Seattle 3:01
3. Dallas 3:00
4. Minnesota 2:54
5. San Diego 2:54

Same 5 teams, Plays while leading (NFL rank)
Seattle 519 (4th)
Minnesota 437 (10th)
Atlanta 292 (20th)
San Diego 266 (24th)
Dallas 241 (25th)

 

[Sydla]

Again I'll take the players' word for it

http://www.phillyvoice.com/cowboys-defense-was-gassed-second-half-against-eagles/

Funny considering the Cowboys won the TOP in that game 38 to 25 in that game.

 

[Idgit]

Funny considering the Cowboys won the TOP in that game 38 to 25 in that game.

Of course they did, given we were playing Chip Kelley's Eagles. I should have caught that.

 

[Idgit]

And no matter how many times it's said, I don't think the distinction between 'the running game is important' and 'running the ball effectively is important' is ever going to be completely grokked by both sides in one of these running game threads.

 

[percyhoward]

You're dealing with ideologues. As such you are wasting your time as no amount of data will deter them from their idea. This isn't the first time you've pointed out how their 'truth' is not universal.

No it isn't, but it's still worthwhile. Either they'll learn something or I will.

 

[Idgit]

No it isn't, but it's still worthwhile. Either they'll learn something or I will.

You'll learn that bailing the ocean takes a pretty big pail.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

because it is a meaningless snippet.....what universal truth can you glean from those 5 lines of data????

I never said that you could. You're the one with such things. Exceptions no matter how slight disprove them quite easily.

 

[percyhoward]

And no matter how many times it's said, I don't think the distinction between 'the running game is important' and 'running the ball effectively is important' is ever going to be completely grokked by both sides in one of these running game threads.

It was huge when we got to the point where we could have success running the ball on first down against defenses that were playing pass (about mid-2013), and equally as huge when we started to exploit that in 2014.

 

[percyhoward]

You'll learn that bailing the ocean takes a pretty big pail.

Well there you go, there's something.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah tell that to Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Joe Gibbs, JJohnson, MShanahan, Pete Caroll,,etc

I know you've heard Bill Parcells poopoo that idea and I've heard percy talk about how running is an effective tool. It's just not the panacea you would have people think.

 

[Kaiser]

"They're tired" is something a commentator might say when a defense is on the ropes late in a game, but if they're on the ropes it's because they can't stop anybody and not because of a conditioning problem. Individual player might be winded or out of shape, sure, but even that's just a matter of a quick rotation out and then back in again.

But its not binary. That's part of what BKnight and I are saying. If a defense gets pounded they might not be gassed but they are well below their play in the first quarter. When Marion Barber III was our backup RB he looked great when he came in late in the game with a physical running style against worn down defenses. I said at the time that he shouldn't be given a big contract extension because he wouldn't be the same player as a starter against fresh defenses - and I was right.

It doesn't have to be either "fresh" or "tired". The Dallas offense in 2014 was effective and powerful, which helped the defense. Taking average time of possession doesn't tell the story when you compare it the 2015 team that ate up possession time because they couldn't pass and HAD to run the ball.

 

[Idgit]

But its not binary. That's part of what BKnight and I are saying. If a defense gets pounded they might not be gassed but they are well below their play in the first quarter. When Marion Barber III was our backup RB he looked great when he came in late in the game with a physical running style against worn down defenses. I said at the time that he shouldn't be given a big contract extension because he wouldn't be the same player as a starter against fresh defenses - and I was right.

It doesn't have to be either "fresh" or "tired". The Dallas offense in 2014 was effective and powerful, which helped the defense. Taking average time of possession doesn't tell the story when you compare it the 2015 team that ate up possession time because they couldn't pass and HAD to run the ball.

I'm not sure I'm getting the distinction. NFL games are streaky. We've seen defenses absolutely gobble up offenses, and we've seen it the other way around. And I don't know that I at least have noticed a rhyme or a reason as to when in the game it happens. Is the offensive line wearing the DL down, or is it the DL that's rattling the QB by getting after him on every play? DLs get to rotate. They don't pull to block downfield. For every Marion Barber there's a LB counterpart dishing out just as much punishment. Do DBs get tired faster than WRs from running routes down field? If the defense is operating below it's normal level of play at the end of games, they're still defending an offense that's in the same situation. It's like a boxing match. Sure, if one boxer is bigger and stronger he can just take it to the other guy and wear him out. But for the most part, in NFL games, that's not what's happening. Both sides are throwing punches and it's not normally the case that the physical matches are entirely one-sided. Plus they stop and wind the clock after every play, after every 15 minutes of game time, and after each half. Not to mention the commercial breaks the league has agreed to.

I know it gets said all the time that a defense is worn out. I just rarely believe it. Sure, both sides are exhausted after 60 minutes of play. I just don't see a lot of evidence that any team in the league can't field 11-15 guys who they can't get in good enough shape to handle a regular 60-70 snaps/game. I do see teams get figured out defensively. Where an offense gets progressively better at figuring out what they're trying to do and beating it. That's what I think is happening more often than not.

 

[Kaiser]

I know it gets said all the time that a defense is worn out. I just rarely believe it. Sure, both sides are exhausted after 60 minutes of play. I just don't see a lot of evidence that any team in the league can't field 11-15 guys who they can't get in good enough shape to handle a regular 60-70 snaps/game. I do see teams get figured out defensively. Where an offense gets progressively better at figuring out what they're trying to do and beating it. That's what I think is happening more often than not.

I absolutely agree the defense being "figured out" is part of it. But other factors like fatigue are part of it also. (Not to quibble but you saying the defense is exhausted by not worn out and I really don't get the distinction).

Exhaustion is part of it, and its not a minor thing to rotate in backups. Last year you would have been taking out DLaw and Sean Lee and the backups are rookies Ryan Russell and Damien Wilson. Ask Drew Brees how that worked out, he targeted Wilson and won the game in overtime because of it. Take out Carr and you are playing Tyler Patmon and Corey White, neither of whom finished the season on the roster.

Also its not just the players, its the strategy you can employ with blitz packages, cover packages, etc.

Ask any player on our defense if they are are more exhausted/worn out if they are on the field 32 minutes with a big lead or 28 minutes in a tie game. They will tell you its the former.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

But its not binary. That's part of what BKnight and I are saying. If a defense gets pounded they might not be gassed but they are well below their play in the first quarter. When Marion Barber III was our backup RB he looked great when he came in late in the game with a physical running style against worn down defenses. I said at the time that he shouldn't be given a big contract extension because he wouldn't be the same player as a starter against fresh defenses - and I was right.

It doesn't have to be either "fresh" or "tired". The Dallas offense in 2014 was effective and powerful, which helped the defense. Taking average time of possession doesn't tell the story when you compare it the 2015 team that ate up possession time because they couldn't pass and HAD to run the ball.

I definitely believe that successful middle runs have a psychological effect on the opposing defense. It's why I found Hayden so maddening because he was so terrible at defending it. DBs start cheating up and crowding inside. Back 7 players bite on play action. DL are tentative on their rush. We've all seen a big run ice things at the end of games.

Weeden and Cassell were a string of 3 and outs and couldn't score points while were efficient and determined to run the ball. While it definitely put the onus on the defense I thought they performed admirably well. Their issue was at the end of the game they, like most teams, have blown their gameplan load and we could no longer smoke and mirrors to cover for Church and the the other slugs in coverage, the opposition could see where we were making mistakes particularly with Claiborne, and we were made to pay.

I think the conditioning thing is overrated particularly with our DC who rotates our players. Even against high paced offenses like Kelly's he managed to do it. I think that gif bknight posted above where Wiclox takes a horrific angle and whiffs is hilarious as a bad example.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Using post game comments when they haven't had a chance for film review as a basis is a steaming pile.