Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

It has been reported that the original plan - which ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine, capped Ukraine's army at 600,000, Donbas to Russia, and mandated that Kyiv hold elections within 100 days- will be drastically reduced in scope. It is unlikely the Russians will accept a watered-down peace plan. FWIW, Putin has maintained for more than a decade that, at the very least, Ukraine is not a part of NATO and that the Donbas be de-militarized (and, in particular, the Azof brigade be disbanded).
 
Montanalo said:
It has been reported that the original plan - which ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine, capped Ukraine's army at 600,000, Donbas to Russia, and mandated that Kyiv hold elections within 100 days- will be drastically reduced in scope. It is unlikely the Russians will accept a watered-down peace plan. FWIW, Putin has maintained for more than a decade that, at the very least, Ukraine is not a part of NATO and that the Donbas be de-militarized (and, in particular, the Azof brigade be disbanded).
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Hard to negotiate peace with an invading power that doesn’t want actually want peace, but rather wants to control the country they’re invading.
 
I don't understand why Ukraine hasn't tried everything to take out Putin for good once and for all? Ukraine has its faults, but they were promised full security back in 1992 by the USA, Great Britain, Germany and the EU if they gave up their 2k+ atomic/nuclear weapons (which they did). BIG MISTAKE! They should have never given up their nuclear weapons. Had Ukraine kept them, Putin and Russia would have never dared invading Ukraine.
 
Mods, Any thoughts on expanding this thread to Iran and some of the international hotspots in the news these days? God bless those kids in Iran that are getting mowed down by their government.
 
VaqueroTD said:
Mods, Any thoughts on expanding this thread to Iran and some of the international hotspots in the news these days? God bless those kids in Iran that are getting mowed down by their government.
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Their courage is something to be admired and stood up for, but that's just my opinion.
 
Montanalo said:
It has been reported that the original plan - which ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine, capped Ukraine's army at 600,000, Donbas to Russia, and mandated that Kyiv hold elections within 100 days- will be drastically reduced in scope. It is unlikely the Russians will accept a watered-down peace plan. FWIW, Putin has maintained for more than a decade that, at the very least, Ukraine is not a part of NATO and that the Donbas be de-militarized (and, in particular, the Azof brigade be disbanded).
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Exactly. Biden and Europe forced this war. USA has promised NATO membership would not be extended to Ukraine even after Obama toppled their elections over a decade ago. So while Putin is not to be trusted the European leaders are far worse.
 
tunahelper said:
Exactly. Biden and Europe forced this war. USA has promised NATO membership would not be extended to Ukraine even after Obama toppled their elections over a decade ago. So while Putin is not to be trusted the European leaders are far worse.
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I mean, was anyone actually threatening Russia’s borders? No. There was and never has been an offensive threat against Russia.

NATO is a defensive alliance that nations enter into voluntarily. Primarily to safeguard their people from Russia, who has proven over and over that it is willing to invade and conquer smaller neighbors.

I think it speaks volumes that nations flock to NATO for protection, but Russia has to force countries into their orbit at gunpoint.

This was a war of choice for Russia, and their nation has paid dearly.
 
BleedSilverandBlue said:
I mean, was anyone actually threatening Russia’s borders? No. There was and never has been an offensive threat against Russia.

NATO is a defensive alliance that nations enter into voluntarily. Primarily to safeguard their people from Russia, who has proven over and over that it is willing to invade and conquer smaller neighbors.

I think it speaks volumes that nations flock to NATO for protection, but Russia has to force countries into their orbit at gunpoint.

This was a war of choice for Russia, and their nation has paid dearly.
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Article 5 is the threat, so yes. NATO and USA started this war. Committments have been made for 30+;years that Ukraine would not enter NATO. Russia has seen NATO grow at its borders for years. Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Finland all have joined NATO, most in the last 20 years. Missle systems have been installed in these countries. America would not allow Mexico and Canada to join such an opposing force and we would be in the right.
In the past, the areas of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia in Ukraine have held referendums that favored joining Russia. Lenin gave Russian lands to Ukraine so these areas are not going to surround Russia with NATO. This war could have easily been prevented by not provoking the bear.
 
tunahelper said:
Article 5 is the threat, so yes. NATO and USA started this war. Committments have been made for 30+;years that Ukraine would not enter NATO. Russia has seen NATO grow at its borders for years. Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Finland all have joined NATO, most in the last 20 years. Missle systems have been installed in these countries. America would not allow Mexico and Canada to join such an opposing force and we would be in the right.
In the past, the areas of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia in Ukraine have held referendums that favored joining Russia. Lenin gave Russian lands to Ukraine so these areas are not going to surround Russia with NATO. This war could have easily been prevented by not provoking the bear.
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Article 5 is a defensive clause, and poses no offensive threat to Russia. No military force was imminently threatening Russia's sovereignty. If Russia actually viewed NATO as a real offensive military threat, they would not have pulled nearly all of their forces off of their borders with the alliance and thrown them into Ukraine. NATO threatens nothing but Russia's imperial ambitions.

Canada and Mexico have no reason to join a defensive alliance agains the United States because the United States does not behave like an unchecked imperial power hellbent on conquering its neighbors. If American indicated seriously that it had an interest in stealing territory from either nation, they would be completely justified in seeking the protection of a defensive alliance.

Russia's terrible behavior and propensity for conquest are what cause its neighbors to flee for help and protection.

Finland and Norway joining NATO can directly be attributed to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Those nations were extremely unlikely to ever make the move to join the alliance. Despite half hearted talks of doing so, Ukraine was also extremely unlikely to join NATO any time in the near future.

At the same time, individual nations are allowed to make decisions for themselves as to what alliances they align themselves with. It is not Russia's right to determine the fate of every other nation in Eastern Europe.

Russian referendums in the occupied territories, and every election in their own borders this century for that matter, have lacked any characteristics of free and fair elections and are widely documented as heavily rigged and predetermined. This really only takes a few minutes of research to prove.
2022 Annexation Referendums in Russian Occupied Ukraine
2014 Donbas Status Referendums
2024 Russian Elections

Internal soviet SSR border drawing over 100 years ago is not a valid pretext for conquering and murdering your neighbor and we should not entertain them as such.

At the end of WWII, the rules shifted from empires to rule of law. Every nation must stay within their borders and may not redraw the maps using violence. It is not a perfect system, but it has spared us from another global conflict in the decades since and given us an unparalleled period of global peace. Let us not abandon it now.

In the end, this completely unnecessary and unjust war will leave Russia battered, more corrupt, poorer, and weaker than it ever was before while also accelerating the demographic collapse which will doom it to irrelevance.
 
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