Sacks vs Pressure

[Galian Beast]

Cowboys fans put entirely too much stock into sacks alone. It's a pretty number, but it doesn't tell the whole story. What this team needs isn't necessarily sacks, but constant and consistent pressure.

Seattle was 8th in the league in sacks last year yet they had a 63.4 defensive qb rating. Green Bay had the exact same amount of sacks but their defensive qb rating was 95.9. Night and day. St. Louis had 53 sacks (3rd in the league) yet their defensive qb rating was 94.7.

I think that speaks to the need to have quality across the line and depth behind the starting line. You need as many quality pass rushers as you can get, and throw them at an offensive line all day.

The last investment we made in our starting defensive lineup was Anthony Spencer back in 2007... We're in 2014...

Spencer - 2007
Hatcher - 2006
Ratliff - 2005
Ware - 2005

I believe if these guys were all healthy, they would have contributed to a strong defensive line... the fact is they're old, and they've been declining for years, and we've seen it in our lack of consistent pressure. We've all seen it. QBs who get ALL day to pass.

Finally we've taken steps to renewing our offensive and defensive lines... It's an exciting time to be a Cowboys fan. The release of Ware, and the lack of resigning Spencer/Hatcher (hopefully Spencer signs elsewhere soon), and the signing of Melton is the lynchpin of our defensive revival. I would have liked to sign Peppers or better yet Allen for a 1 or 2 year deal, but the money had to be right. Doing this would have given us the ability to diversify in the draft a little bit more. But at this point, don't get caught up in name game. Look at Seattle's front line or Chicago's and they really aren't littered with star players. At this rate, I think we need to draft two defensive ends early. I'd like to come out of the draft with Kony Ealy and Jackson Jeffcoat.

I wouldn't be surprised if we gave up a future years draft pick to get another defensive lineman early this year.

 

[Jenky]

Seattle has talent on all 3 levels of defense. The notion of only needing a good pass rush + decent secondary is false.

See Detriot. A team who continuously spends 1st round picks on the d-line and with a garbage secondary.

 

[Doomsday101]

Seattle has talent on all 3 levels of defense. The notion of only needing a good pass rush + decent secondary is false.

See Detriot. A team who continuously spends 1st round picks on the d-line and with a garbage secondary.

and if Dallas can somehow stay a bit more healty and build up the defensive front fans may find out we have some good talent on all 3 levels. LB core for Cowboys and secondary has some very good talent that will benifet greatly if we can be more consistent on the DL.

 

[Galian Beast]

Seattle has talent on all 3 levels of defense. The notion of only needing a good pass rush + decent secondary is false.

See Detriot. A team who continuously spends 1st round picks on the d-line and with a garbage secondary.

I do think the secondary is important, and I do think our safeties have been a major weak link for us, but we did go heavy at corner for a while without much results. A lot of people think going heavy at safety would be the solution, but I think that with the pass rush the way it is at the moment, that is unrealistic.

We have made investments in safety in Wilcox and Johnson. I think 2015 will be the time to address the secondary, as necessary. Priority #1 has to be this line that we've ignored since 2007.

 

[conner01]

im agree pressure is very important. the reason fans talk about sacks is the stat is easy to find, pressure stats are not so easy

 

[Nova]

Slight flaw in your idea that more pressures = lower OPP passer rating.

The Rams had 38 more pressures than GB, about 2.5 per game but still churned out about the exact same OPP passer rating.

The Giants had 12 less pressures than the rams, but an OPP passer rating that was nearly 17 points less.

 

[CyberB0b]

Slight flaw in your idea that more pressures = lower OPP passer rating.

The Rams had 38 more pressures than GB, about 2.5 per game but still churned out about the exact same OPP passer rating.

The Giants had 12 less pressures than the rams, but an OPP passer rating that was nearly 17 points less.

I thought it was odd that the thread was labeled "Sacks vs. Pressure", but didn't list any pressure stats.

 

[Galian Beast]

im agree pressure is very important. the reason fans talk about sacks is the stat is easy to find, pressure stats are not so easy

I guess my point is that by addressing the defensive line, you're actually also addressing the linebacker corps and secondary. It'll improve them greatly, and from there the team can evaluate what needs more investment.

We drafted Wilcox in the 3rd round. He had played what? A year at safety in college? Maybe two? The idea was that we would develop him and saw potential there. We have to let that come to fruition. I still think it is incumbent on the front office to ask Carr for a pay cut, but I think you'll see our secondary improves greatly over last year when we don't have walk ons manning the defensive line.

I think we'll be healthier because the team will be younger. And we've begun to jettison injury prone players now, Austin, Ware, Ratliff, Spencer...

It doesn't look good for someone like Murray (but that is a different conversation)

 

[Galian Beast]

Slight flaw in your idea that more pressures = lower OPP passer rating.

The Rams had 38 more pressures than GB, about 2.5 per game but still churned out about the exact same OPP passer rating.

The Giants had 12 less pressures than the rams, but an OPP passer rating that was nearly 17 points less.

And never said it was a formula, merely that pressure is more important than sacks. You could play a really poor team and get most of your pressures there, yet still get lite up when you don't get pressure. My point is that you have to be consistent. And I'm not discounting the fact that the secondary and lb corps plays a factor.

Essentially, I think you missed my point entirely.

 

[OhSnap]

Cowboys fans put entirely too much stock into sacks alone. It's a pretty number, but it doesn't tell the whole story. What this team needs isn't necessarily sacks, but constant and consistent pressure.

Seattle was 8th in the league in sacks last year yet they had a 63.4 defensive qb rating. Green Bay had the exact same amount of sacks but their defensive qb rating was 95.9. Night and day. St. Louis had 53 sacks (3rd in the league) yet their defensive qb rating was 94.7.

I think that speaks to the need to have quality across the line and depth behind the starting line. You need as many quality pass rushers as you can get, and throw them at an offensive line all day.

The last investment we made in our starting defensive lineup was Anthony Spencer back in 2007... We're in 2014...

Spencer - 2007
Hatcher - 2006
Ratliff - 2005
Ware - 2005

I believe if these guys were all healthy, they would have contributed to a strong defensive line... the fact is they're old, and they've been declining for years, and we've seen it in our lack of consistent pressure. We've all seen it. QBs who get ALL day to pass.

Finally we've taken steps to renewing our offensive and defensive lines... It's an exciting time to be a Cowboys fan. The release of Ware, and the lack of resigning Spencer/Hatcher (hopefully Spencer signs elsewhere soon), and the signing of Melton is the lynchpin of our defensive revival. I would have liked to sign Peppers or better yet Allen for a 1 or 2 year deal, but the money had to be right. Doing this would have given us the ability to diversify in the draft a little bit more. But at this point, don't get caught up in name game. Look at Seattle's front line or Chicago's and they really aren't littered with star players. At this rate, I think we need to draft two defensive ends early. I'd like to come out of the draft with Kony Ealy and Jackson Jeffcoat.

I wouldn't be surprised if we gave up a future years draft pick to get another defensive lineman early this year.

I would apply the same thing about INTS and passes defensed as you did with the sacks. I always thought Newman was under rated in that area since he hardly ever got the int's but was very good at covering the opp. best receiver every year for a long time.
Seems like your forgetting OLB's from the 3-4 when you looked at the D-line. Crawford was taken because he could play LB and DE and Wilbur was pretty much the same. Before that there was Carter and Victor butler.

 

[Nova]

And never said it was a formula, merely that pressure is more important than sacks. You could play a really poor team and get most of your pressures there, yet still get lite up when you don't get pressure. My point is that you have to be consistent. And I'm not discounting the fact that the secondary and lb corps plays a factor.

Essentially, I think you missed my point entirely.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I just missed the idea.

On a somewhat separate note, it's interesting that you're distinguishing sacks from pressures. Maybe you mean that there is more to consider than just sacks, or maybe you were thinking of 'hurries'. Not really sure.

But just to clarify for others who may be confused, a pressure is a sack, hit, or hurry.

So if Selvie has 2 sacks, 2 QB hits, and 5 hurries, Selvie had 9 total pressures and a fantastic game.

 

[Galian Beast]

I would apply the same thing about INTS and passes defensed as you did with the sacks. I always thought Newman was under rated in that area since he hardly ever got the int's but was very good at covering the opp. best receiver every year for a long time.
Seems like your forgetting OLB's from the 3-4 when you looked at the D-line. Crawford was taken because he could play LB and DE and Wilbur was pretty much the same. Before that there was Carter and Victor butler.

Crawford was never going to play OLB, he was going to play 3-4 DE, he was never a pass rusher. Wilber was brought in to play OLB, and he had very questionable pass rush experience. I'm not saying that we never made investments in pass rushers, merely that we made poor investments, and never focused on getting players that would stick around.

One of my biggest gripes about moving to the 3-4 was that you were always drafting players and asking them to learn a new position, and hoping for the best. We didn't have much luck there.

 

[Galian Beast]

Maybe you're right. Maybe I just missed the idea.

On a somewhat separate note, it's interesting that you're distinguishing sacks from pressures. Maybe you mean that there is more to consider than just sacks, or maybe you were thinking of 'hurries'. Not really sure.

But just to clarify for others who may be confused, a pressure is a sack, hit, or hurry.

So if Selvie has 2 sacks, 2 QB hits, and 5 hurries, Selvie had 9 total pressures and a fantastic game.

To clarify I wasn't specifically referring to the stat of pressures, which isn't really recorded, but the concept of pressure in general. Whether a player moving the pocket constitutes a hurry or not, isn't what I'm getting at here. My point is that the sack stat doesn't give much of the overall picture, so we should stop focusing on spending 10 million dollars on guys simply because they got double digit sacks, but may or may not actually being putting consistent pressure on QBs. I think a strong rotation of guys who can push the pocket around is much more effective than having a single guy like Ware who racks up stats but doesn't produce a solid defense.

 

[perrykemp]

Saw this (bottom of post) by Bob McGinn this past week in his analysis of Julius Peppers and it touched about the whole sacks vs pressures / knockdowns thing.

It McGinn's view, Peppers was the 78th best pass rusher in the NFL last season.

Kinda interesting. I thought Peppers was on the downside, however, based on the metrics McGinn looks at, he is basically a JAG at this point.

I'd be interested to see how Melton's 2012 stats (or maybe even the 3 games of 2013) look when taking into account knockdowns and hurries in addition to sacks.

"He (Peppers) just turned 34 and has been fairly free of injuries during a 12-year career. His body is magnificent. He definitely still looks the part. But other than the two games that he played against the Packers (and in all likelihood certainly weighed heavily in the Packers' decision to go for him) and one against Minnesota, he didn't do a lot in 2013. The STATS numbers for knockdowns and hurries for 2013 were illuminating. Peppers had 16 1/2, and he played 81.7% of the Bears' snaps, too. That tied him for 78th place in the league with Connor Barwin, ILB Karlos Dansby, Von Miller, NT Dontari Poe and Antonio Smith. Mike Neal led GB with 18 1/2 followed by Mike Daniels with 17 1/2, Clay Matthews with 16 and Datone Jones with 11 1/2. Robert Quinn led the NFL with 56. In this free agent class, Justin Tuck had 40, Jared Allen had 38, Jason Babin had 32, Michael Johnson had 31, Lamarr Houston had 29 1/2, DeMarcus Ware had 29 1/2 and Willie Young had 26 1/2. This number reflects consistency of pass-rush pressure. The sack total is less significant. I'd bet 20% of sacks are garbage, and another 20% were set up by teammates.​

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/250543471.html#ixzz2wQjCXI8M

 

[OhSnap]

Crawford was never going to play OLB, he was going to play 3-4 DE, he was never a pass rusher. Wilber was brought in to play OLB, and he had very questionable pass rush experience. I'm not saying that we never made investments in pass rushers, merely that we made poor investments, and never focused on getting players that would stick around.

One of my biggest gripes about moving to the 3-4 was that you were always drafting players and asking them to learn a new position, and hoping for the best. We didn't have much luck there.

The drafting flat out sucked for several years but appears to have gotten better. We'll see.

 

[jterrell]

And never said it was a formula, merely that pressure is more important than sacks. You could play a really poor team and get most of your pressures there, yet still get lite up when you don't get pressure. My point is that you have to be consistent. And I'm not discounting the fact that the secondary and lb corps plays a factor.

Essentially, I think you missed my point entirely.

Your point is there but overlooking or ignoring that Seattle has the best secondary in football by a long shot makes it a fairly weak one.

The second best rating for pass rush productivity by a team defense was Detroit. How'd they fare versus the pass this year???
St. Louis and Miami were 3rd and 4th.

Not exactly tied to overall defensive excellence there....

In fact hard to find much meaning in that stat looking at results of QB rating allowed.


BTW, Dallas finished ~23rd in pass rush productivity but dead last in passing yards allowed.
Why did 9 other teams rush the passer less effectively than us but still manage to allow less yards passing and a lower QB rating against?

 

[perrykemp]

The drafting flat out sucked for several years but appears to have gotten better. We'll see.

Don't forget 2012 which has a chance to be one of the Cowboy's worst drafts ever.

 

[jterrell]

Saw this (bottom of post) by Bob McGinn this past week in his analysis of Julius Peppers and it touched about the whole sacks vs pressures / knockdowns thing.

It McGinn's view, Peppers was the 78th best pass rusher in the NFL last season.

Kinda interesting. I thought Peppers was on the downside, however, based on the metrics McGinn looks at, he is basically a JAG at this point.

I'd be interested to see how Melton's 2012 stats (or maybe even the 3 games of 2013) look when taking into account knockdowns and hurries in addition to sacks.

"He (Peppers) just turned 34 and has been fairly free of injuries during a 12-year career. His body is magnificent. He definitely still looks the part. But other than the two games that he played against the Packers (and in all likelihood certainly weighed heavily in the Packers' decision to go for him) and one against Minnesota, he didn't do a lot in 2013. The STATS numbers for knockdowns and hurries for 2013 were illuminating. Peppers had 16 1/2, and he played 81.7% of the Bears' snaps, too. That tied him for 78th place in the league with Connor Barwin, ILB Karlos Dansby, Von Miller, NT Dontari Poe and Antonio Smith. Mike Neal led GB with 18 1/2 followed by Mike Daniels with 17 1/2, Clay Matthews with 16 and Datone Jones with 11 1/2. Robert Quinn led the NFL with 56. In this free agent class, Justin Tuck had 40, Jared Allen had 38, Jason Babin had 32, Michael Johnson had 31, Lamarr Houston had 29 1/2, DeMarcus Ware had 29 1/2 and Willie Young had 26 1/2. This number reflects consistency of pass-rush pressure. The sack total is less significant. I'd bet 20% of sacks are garbage, and another 20% were set up by teammates.​

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/250543471.html#ixzz2wQjCXI8M

Melton had only 3 hurries in 2012... not sure on knock downs.

 

[Galian Beast]

Your point is there but overlooking or ignoring that Seattle has the best secondary in football by a long shot makes it a fairly weak one.

The second best rating for pass rush productivity by a team defense was Detroit. How'd they fare versus the pass this year???
St. Louis and Miami were 3rd and 4th.

Not exactly tied to overall defensive excellence there....

In fact hard to find much meaning in that stat looking at results of QB rating allowed.


BTW, Dallas finished ~23rd in pass rush productivity but dead last in passing yards allowed.
Why did 9 other teams rush the passer less effectively than us but still manage to allow less yards passing and a lower QB rating against?

My point is that we can't tell how good our secondary is with what we had for our defensive line.

 

[jterrell]

My point is that we can't tell how good our secondary is with what we had for our defensive line.

But you are incorrect.
Because 8/9 other teams had worse pressure from their DLs but better performance versus the pass.

so we have a very easily definable way to measure our DBs. They finsihed dead last in what theya re asked to do and thus sucked... BAD.

32nd is 32nd, it doesn't get worse.

Fair to share that with LBs who were terrible in coverage but overall the coverage was the worst in team history.