Safety... The Defensive Equivalent of the Fading Role of Fullback

BHendri5;3299712 said:
Now when I use to put on here that we Should move Newman to FS, there were some stupid posts in response to my suggestion.

I just felt that Newman would make a better FS than he has been a CB lately and when we drafted Scandrick and Jenkins, I really felt that we should have moved Newman to FS and let Hamlin go after his fisrt disappointing season, but money was an issue then.

Newman would likely make an elite FS, but when you've got a guy that's been Top 5 for much of his career at the corner, it's hard to justify a move.

Now, moving Anthony Henry to FS made entirely much more sense back then.
 
I don't entirely agree with this post. While I do think that the Strong Safety is going the way of the dodo, I don't think that's true for the position entirely.

It had always been a team had to have a big-hitter back there and I think that quality is dropping down some in terms of being a necessity.

I think Roy Williams struggles clearly showed us that. You can't hit what you can't catch.

But I think there is still a need for a more physical presence and a more forceful tackler in the secondary than most cornerbacks provide.

Newman at safety? I don't see it. He's not a physical enough corner so I don't see how he'd excel at a safety role, even a "hybrid" one.

I do see teams going more toward having two free safeties with better coverage skills over the traditional strong safety, and any corner transitioned to the role would need better than average size to withstand the more physical nature of the positon.

And as for fullback? Call me a dinosaur, but I think that teams are missing the boat in not having a designated kamikaze who willingly sacrifices his body in the name of a more physical, imposing running game.

Just ask LT if he misses Lorenzo Neal...
 
I can't believe anyone would seriously consider making Newman a safety. No way would he be suited for that.
 
Chocolate Lab;3299923 said:
I can't believe anyone would seriously consider making Newman a safety. No way would he be suited for that.

I lol'ed too.


Yes ideally you want your safeties to have strong coverage skills, but you still have to be able to count on them in run support.
 
I think Newman would have a hard time staying healthy but I could easily be wrong. He's a great candidate otherwise because of his cover skills and speed.

Everyone needs to know how to tackle. It's surviving the run support which is a problem. Too many 'business' decisions. Safety is now instincts, cover skills and the body type to take tackling big RBs and TEs.

BTW, some of us have been talking cover safety since before Roy Williams was shown the door. And moving CBs to safety has been around quite awhile.
 
Everlastingxxx;3299709 said:
So if safety is becoming a position of coverage and speed...then so does the WR position to combat it. Reason why Dallas needs to add more speed at WR and i’m not talking about more UDFAs.

Actually, you don't combat speed with speed, you combat it with size. If safeties turn into little more than extra CBs, then you aren't going to have a lot of success going deep on them. The key would be to get larger WRs in the Sindey Rice (6'4, 4.51), Dwayne Bowe (6'2, 4.51), Miles Austin (6'2, 4.47), and Brandon Marshall (6'5, 4.52) mold.
 
JonJon;3299598 said:
I was going to post something along the lines of this today and Hos brings up a very good point. The Choice/Cromartie trade rumor revealed the Cowboys offseason plan in my opinion. Seeing as how Dallas has 3 good CB's already, either Dallas was considering the option of converting Cromartie to FS or Dallas was going to convert either Newman or Scandrick to FS and allow Cromartie to be the 3rd CB.

The Cowboys flirted with the possibility of moving Scandrick to FS last offseason and I think that may be the plan again. There aren't many options in free agency this year for a CB to FS convert candidate. Therefor, I think this equation will be solved in the draft.

I think the Cowboys will draft another CB early in the draft; possibly in round 2-3, and have that CB be our Nickle CB option with Scandrick moving to FS part time. If this is the plan, CB Jerome Murphy of South Florida would be my pick.
Regarding Cromartie. The Jets are taking a gamble on him that could pay off huge. We already know he has some ball skills. We also know that teams are going to avoid throwing at Revis because he simply shuts WRs down. They are going to count on Cromartie making a lot of INTs for them. That is why they could afford to close their eyes to his character flaws.

I don't think Jerry could, which is why those rumors never really had wings.
 
Yakuza Rich;3299556 said:
I disagree to an extent. Fullbacks are not used much anymore because not only do many tailbacks/offensive schemes not have a big necessity for them, but many running backs don't like that lead blocker. I think that's different from safeties.

I think the problem with going to corners at safety is the tackling takes a nosedive. I think the type of safety is different now. Probably more along the lines like a hybrid safety/corner. Or you could go with more of a corner at FS and a good tackler who is competent in short zone coverage at SS.

I wasn't upset with not signing Rolle because he seems like a solid safety and not a guy worth being paid the highest salary in safety history. We need to get more playmaking out of safety. We don't get enough interceptions and in large part that's due to the safety play.





3JACK




3JACK
That is essentially the whole point of my post. That is why I brought up Ball who is not a typical Safety at all. No way he ways 2 bills. Yet he played the position well.

Again, Safeties have always had a major role in run support and pass coverage, but now it is evolving into a situation where teams pass more than they run so coverage skills are more valuable than run stopping skills. Every Defensive player supports both. I am saying the coverage skills are becoming far more valuable all the time.

Hence the evolution to more CBs moving to Safety.
 
CATCH17;3299608 said:
You still have to be somewhat physical to be a safety and someone like Newman would never stay healthy.

I like EarlnThomas because he has the most range of any safety in this class and is still young and bulked up some already.
I completely reject that notion as superstition.
 
dbair1967;3299614 said:
Wow, couldnt disagree more there. The premium now for defeses is safeties who can cover and make plays in space. The old in the box downhill safeties are probably a thing of the past, but finding guys who are good enough to cover slot receivers, TE's, RB's flanked out and still being good enough to tackle in the open field is a key for defensive flexibility.

You mention better coverage ability, but instincts play a huge role in ball skills for DB's, especially safeties. Some guys have a knack for "angles" and playing the ball in the air, and this is where the guys we have (especially Hamlin) struggle. Some CB's can move to safety and play it effectively, but some have no clue how to play in
"space", and some would be huge liabilities vs the run.
You said you disagreed, then agreed with me completely.
 
Everlastingxxx;3299709 said:
So if safety is becoming a position of coverage and speed...then so does the WR position to combat it. Reason why Dallas needs to add more speed at WR and i’m not talking about more UDFAs.
Actually you would go to bigger WRs to combat this so you create mismatches in trying to bring a WR down.

Edit...Sorry masomenos. I didn't see your post already saying this.
 
Hostile;3300026 said:
Actually you would go to bigger WRs to combat this so you create mismatches in trying to bring a WR down.

Edit...Sorry masomenos. I didn't see your post already saying this.

Don't sweat it, it's the whole 'great minds' deal.
:thumbup:
 
Hostile;3299475 said:
The NFL evolves all the time. Occasionally it will run in cycles where something from the past comes back, and then it goes away again gradually. Like the 46 Defense. It was huge, then defunct, now it is returning in bits and pieces and will likely fade away again. We'll see the same with the Wildcat Offenses.

We've all noted that Fullback is a position in the NFL just isn't the same as it used to be. There are very few Moose Johnston's anymore. Lorenzo Neal had as much to do with LaDanian Tomlinson's success as Moose did for Emmitt, but FBs like that are not high on priority lists much any more.

Safeties are the Defensive equivalent. They are going to gradually fade from importance. Mainly because very few of them can cover like a CB and many of them are going to follow the path of Rod Woodson from CB to Safety.

That is why I really wasn't upset when Antrel Rolle signed in New York with the Giants. Like Woodson, he is a CB who has moved to Safety. The money he commanded is the number one reason why I am not upset we missed out on him. I feel like we could move Terence Newman to Safety just like we have Alan Ball and be fine. Scandrick is more than capable of being a starting LCB.

That is also why I am not all that high on Bethea, or Atogwe, or any other option where we have to pay a team. The Cardinals got a great deal on Kerry Rhodes. I doubt you will see a huge drop off in production from Rolle to Rhodes for them. So they ended up with a bargain. Yet I still wouldn't want to pay the prices they did.

It is also why I don't want to pay the price of a Safety with our 1st or 2nd round pick. Not even for Earl Thomas if he is there. I just see it as an unnecessary luxury anymore. It is rare to find an Ed Reed or a Troy Palumalu and Earl Thomas may be that rare breed, but relying on them to stay healthy because the drop off if they don't is so severe that it just doesn't make it seem worthwhile.

Pass Offenses have become so sophisticated that coverage skills outweigh tackling skills at Safety. That is why a phenomenal athlete like Taylor Mays is being looked at more as a LB. That is why a Roy Williams could go from difference maker to liability in such a shirt time. The position is evolving and teams have to evolve with it.

I think you will see a time coming where teams play with only one Safety, who acts like a Center Fielder looking to cover to either side and the middle. You hardly even see Safety blitzes any more, but Corner blitzes still get called.

Dallas wanted to be ahead of this curve when they talked about using Scandrick in the "Star" position. In reality this was merely a recycling of the way Tom Landry used to use Cornell Green. Cornell remains one of the more under appreciated unsung heroes in the History of our team. He was a tremendous difference maker for a long time. I believe Newman, Ball or Scandrick could handle that role just fine if need be.

When Ball got drafted he weighed 172 pounds. I doubt he is 6 feet tall. I remember joking that he needed to step away from the salad bar. I doubt that today he is pushing 200. Yet he played Safety for us in 2009 and did a fairly good job of it. Why? Because his coverage skills as a CB benefited the way the NFL is evolving.

For this reason, I put more importance on CB in the 2010 Draft than I would Safety. Yeah, I'd take Earl Thomas if he falls to us. You don't pass on rare ability. But I don't think Safety is as big a need as people assume. Coverage ability is, which is why I think we will keep Sensabaugh ultimately but might let Ken Hamlin go.

If we want more INTs, and I think we all do, there are two ways that will happen. More pressure, and I think that arrives with a healthy Ware and a ready Spencer, and better coverage.

maybe i am in the minority here but i would be very excited with earl thomas in the first round. if not thomas then we need a future left tackle. i agree there is no other safety other then berry that is worthy of a first round grade. in my opinion.
 
To me the Safety will always have a place on the field, due to the positions usual operating area well behind the defense. downfield.

It's to me an altogether different circumstance than the Fullback. The fullback was an auxiliary rushing option in a run dominated offensive philosophy. The fullback was a part time running option with the ability to block.

As the game's become more pass oriented we're seeing more emphasis on the Tightend, whose theoretically supposed to possess blocking ability while being an auxiliary passing option.

I also think the safeties are undervalued in the game, I sometimes wonder why some safeties dont have more fame or notoriety.
 
Excellent post, Hostile.

Still, whatever the new offenses have become, you cannot beat the ground game and its emphasis on running the clock, tiring the defense, grinding it with heady OL play and horses like an Emmitt Smith to keep the defense keyed on the line. And I bet Irvin loved that system.

Balance makes both the running and passing game effective and Jimma proved it with Emmitt and the Moose.
 
Hostile;3299475 said:
Scandrick is more than capable of being a starting LCB.

I guess I don't share your confidence in Scandrick yet. I need to see MUCH more out of him before I would be be willing to say he is "more than capable", i.e. better than average.
 
masomenos85;3300013 said:
Actually, you don't combat speed with speed, you combat it with size. If safeties turn into little more than extra CBs, then you aren't going to have a lot of success going deep on them. The key would be to get larger WRs in the Sindey Rice (6'4, 4.51), Dwayne Bowe (6'2, 4.51), Miles Austin (6'2, 4.47), and Brandon Marshall (6'5, 4.52) mold.

Actually both of you are wrong. You combat it with talent.
 
GimmeTheBall!;3300046 said:
Excellent post, Hostile.

Still, whatever the new offenses have become, you cannot beat the ground game and its emphasis on running the clock, tiring the defense, grinding it with heady OL play and horses like an Emmitt Smith to keep the defense keyed on the line. And I bet Irvin loved that system.

Balance makes both the running and passing game effective and Jimma proved it with Emmitt and the Moose.

Probably your best post ever, minus the gross misspelling of Jimmy Johnson's first name.
 
Everlastingxxx;3300063 said:
Actually both of you are wrong. You combat it with talent.

I thought that went without saying, but you said it. Besides, wouldn't that make your previous statement pointless? You said the safety position was becoming about coverage and speed, so WRs had to do the same to combat it. So, you were wrong too or...?
 
masomenos85;3300080 said:
I thought that went without saying, but you said it. Besides, wouldn't that make your previous statement pointless? You said the safety position was becoming about coverage and speed, so WRs had to do the same to combat it. So, you were wrong too or...?
So did I.
 

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