Sammy #600. Poetic

[thomas_22]

Sammy Sosa Hit Number 600 off his former team against a guy who was wearing his old Number and even Hit the ball in the Rangers Dugout so he can get the ball back. pretty cool moment

 

[peplaw06]

I didn't know people were still watching Rangers games

 

[Yeagermeister]

I didn't know people were still watching Rangers games

Or baseball in general

 

[Mavs Man]

It's baseball season?

 

[thomas_22]

gotta watch somethin during the offseason and i sure aint watchin soccer hockey or pro basketball

 

[Danny White]

They should send the ball and his corked bat, and the syringe he used before the game to Cooperstown to commemorate the moment!

 

[Mavs Man]

^^^

On that note, how does Sammy compare to guys like Bonds, McGuire, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc. who more than likely will never make it to the Hall of Fame (otherwise deserving or not)?

Is the corked bat, his strange loss of the English language at the Congressional hearing, his two jaws, and the era he played in (guilty by association) enough to keep him out? Or is the lack of real evidence against him enough to persuade writers to overlook it?

 

[Danny White]

^^^

On that note, how does Sammy compare to guys like Bonds, McGuire, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc. who more than likely will never make it to the Hall of Fame (otherwise deserving or not)?

Is the corked bat, his strange loss of the English language at the Congressional hearing, his two jaws, and the era he played in (guilty by association) enough to keep him out? Or is the lack of real evidence against him enough to persuade writers to overlook it?

IMO, Sammy should NOT be in the Hall of Fame. The juice is just part of it... the corked bat is really a black eye for him. It was just such cheesy, shameless cheating that makes you thoroughly question his honesty.

If I had my way, none of the accused cheaters you mentioned would make it in. But without hard evidence it's going to be hard to keep at least a couple of them out.

If I had to guess, I'd say no way Raffy and Canseco make it in.

Bonds almost certainly will, since he's the active single season record holder and will soon be the all time home run record holder. Without a smoking gun, it'll be darn near impossible to keep him out.

McGuire and Sosa are tough to tell. I think both might have to sweat it out a bit before making it in, but in the end, both probably will.

But again, if I had my druthers, I'd keep em all out.

 

[peplaw06]

IMO, Sammy should NOT be in the Hall of Fame. The juice is just part of it... the corked bat is really a black eye for him. It was just such cheesy, shameless cheating that makes you thoroughly question his honesty.

If I had my way, none of the accused cheaters you mentioned would make it in. But without hard evidence it's going to be hard to keep at least a couple of them out.

If I had to guess, I'd say no way Raffy and Canseco make it in.

Bonds almost certainly will, since he's the active single season record holder and will soon be the all time home run record holder. Without a smoking gun, it'll be darn near impossible to keep him out.

McGuire and Sosa are tough to tell. I think both might have to sweat it out a bit before making it in, but in the end, both probably will.

But again, if I had my druthers, I'd keep em all out.

The corked bat stuff isn't a big deal IMO. There are tons of pitchers who are in the HOF who doctored balls, but nothing's ever mentioned about them.

I think the steroid suspicion may hold him out for a while, but only 5 guys with 600 HRs and he's one of em? He's gettin in. Just a matter of when?

I agree with you on Canseco. Palmeiro, I'm not so sure. He's debatable IMO.

 

[Mavs Man]

I have to think with 600 home runs Sosa will get in, but it might take a couple of tries. McGuire, too, even though he's kind of a one-dimensional player (but very good at that one) so people will look for excuses to keep him out.

In the same way, long before all of this stuff Palmeiro was seen more as player who was very consistent and played a long time than as a future HoFamer. 500 home runs and 3,000 hits made it a hard case to make, but with the failed steroid test I have to think any chance of him making it was shot.

Canseco isn't making it. Door closed.

Bonds should make it since even if he hadn't turned into the Incredible Hulk he'd still have over 600 homers and a bunch of MVPs. But his stats are definitely tainted.

Ken Griffey Jr. has a good chance of crossing the 600 home run mark this season, or at the latest early next season. He's one of the few first ballot locks from this recent home run era.

 

[Yeagermeister]

^^^

On that note, how does Sammy compare to guys like Bonds, McGuire, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc. who more than likely will never make it to the Hall of Fame (otherwise deserving or not)?

Is the corked bat, his strange loss of the English language at the Congressional hearing, his two jaws, and the era he played in (guilty by association) enough to keep him out? Or is the lack of real evidence against him enough to persuade writers to overlook it?

Bonds gets in roids or not......unfortunately

 

[joseephuss]

I have to think with 600 home runs Sosa will get in, but it might take a couple of tries. McGuire, too, even though he's kind of a one-dimensional player (but very good at that one) so people will look for excuses to keep him out.

In the same way, long before all of this stuff Palmeiro was seen more as player who was very consistent and played a long time than as a future HoFamer. 500 home runs and 3,000 hits made it a hard case to make, but with the failed steroid test I have to think any chance of him making it was shot.

Canseco isn't making it. Door closed.

Bonds should make it since even if he hadn't turned into the Incredible Hulk he'd still have over 600 homers and a bunch of MVPs. But his stats are definitely tainted.

Ken Griffey Jr. has a good chance of crossing the 600 home run mark this season, or at the latest early next season. He's one of the few first ballot locks from this recent home run era.

I never truly understood the argument against Palmeiro that he just played a long time. I have seen it many times before. I get the steroids stuff. That is obvious to me even if I truly don't care if players juice. That is a different argument. I do accept that it does matter to most and understand that is why Raffy is not HoF worthy based on that criteria. Now if we can separate that from the conversation, I don't see how they keep Palmeiro out of the HoF.

Yes, he did play a long time. So did everyone else who hit 500 home runs or got 3000 hits. Those are the type of marks that take a long time to achieve. Most guys on the top lists play for 19 or more seasons. Palmeiro played in 20. It is not as if he played in 25 to 30 seasons.

Top 30 in HR:

1. Hank Aaron 755—23 seasons
2. Barry Bonds 748—22 seasons
3. Babe Ruth 714—22 seasons
4. Willie Mays 660—22 seasons
5. Sammy Sosa 600—18 seasons
6. Frank Robinson 596—21 seasons
7. Mark McGwire 583—16 seasons
8. Ken Griffey, Jr. 582—19 seasons
9. Harmon Killebrew 573—22 seasons
10. Rafael Palmeiro 569—20 seasons
11. Reggie Jackson 563—21 seasons
12. Mike Schmidt 548—18 seasons
13. Mickey Mantle 536—18 seasons
14. Jimmie Foxx 534—20 seasons
15. Willie McCovey 521—22 seasons
15. Ted Williams 521—19 seasons
17. Ernie Banks 512—19 seasons
17. Eddie Mathews 512—17 seasons
19. Mel Ott 511—22 seasons
20 Eddie Murray 504—21 seasons
21. Frank Thomas 497—18 seasons
22. Lou Gehrig 493—17 seasons
22. Fred McGriff 493—19 seasons
24. Alex Rodriguez 491—14 seasons
25. Manny Ramirez 481--15 seasons
25. Jim Thome 481--17 seasons
27. Stan Musial 475--22 seasons
27. Willie Stargel 475--21 seasons
29. Gary Sheffield 472--20 seasons
30. Dave Winfield 465--22 seasons

Top 30 in hits:

1.Pete Rose 4256—24 seasons
2.Ty Cobb 4189—24 seasons
3.Hank Aaron 3771—23 seasons
4.Stan Musial 3630—22 seasons
5.Tris Speaker 3514—22 seasons
6.Carl Yastrzemski 3419—23 seasons
7.Cap Anson 3418—27 seasons
8.Honus Wagner 3415—21 seasons
9.Paul Molitor 3319—21 seasons
10.Eddie Collins 3315—25 seasons
11.Willie Mays 3283—22 seasons
12.Eddie Murray 3255—21 seasons
13.Nap Lajoie 3242—21 seasons
14.Cal Ripken 3184—21 seasons
15.George Brett 3154—21 seasons
16.Paul Waner 3152—20 seasons
17.Robin Yount 3142—20 seasons
18.Tony Gwynn 3141—20 seasons
19.Dave Winfield 3110—22 seasons
20.Rickey Henderson 3055—25 seasons
21.Rod Carew 3053—19 seasons
22.Lou Brock 3023—19 seasons
23.Rafael Palmeiro 3020—20 seasons
24.Wade Boggs 3010—18 seasons
25.Al Kaline 3007—22 seasons
26.Roberto Clemente 3000—18 seasons
27.Craig Biggio 2992—20 seasons
28.Sam Rice 2987—20 seasons
29.Sam Crawford 2961—19 seasons
30.Frank Robinson 2943—21 seasons

Those are some impressive names on those two lists. I don't see Raffy in the class with all those guys, but he is on par with several of them. To me, they are all worthy of the HoF, but some deserve a special wing of the truly greats.

Only 7 guys are on both lists(Dave Winfield, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson, Rafael Palmeiro, Eddie Murray, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron) that I compiled and only 4 have both over 500 HRs and 3000 hits. Palmeiro is one of them. That is just impressive.

I know some of the numbers are skewed by the era he played, but there aren't a whole bunch of his contemporaries on both lists.

Him failing a drug test probably ended all arguments. I understand that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I never truly understood the argument against Palmeiro that he just played a long time. I have seen it many times before. I get the steroids stuff. That is obvious to me even if I truly don't care if players juice. That is a different argument. I do accept that it does matter to most and understand that is why Raffy is not HoF worthy based on that criteria. Now if we can separate that from the conversation, I don't see how they keep Palmeiro out of the HoF.

Yes, he did play a long time. So did everyone else who hit 500 home runs or got 3000 hits. Those are the type of marks that take a long time to achieve. Most guys on the top lists play for 19 or more seasons. Palmeiro played in 20. It is not as if he played in 25 to 30 seasons.

Top 30 in HR:

1. Hank Aaron 755—23 seasons
2. Barry Bonds 748—22 seasons
3. Babe Ruth 714—22 seasons
4. Willie Mays 660—22 seasons
5. Sammy Sosa 600—18 seasons
6. Frank Robinson 596—21 seasons
7. Mark McGwire 583—16 seasons
8. Ken Griffey, Jr. 582—19 seasons
9. Harmon Killebrew 573—22 seasons
10. Rafael Palmeiro 569—20 seasons
11. Reggie Jackson 563—21 seasons
12. Mike Schmidt 548—18 seasons
13. Mickey Mantle 536—18 seasons
14. Jimmie Foxx 534—20 seasons
15. Willie McCovey 521—22 seasons
15. Ted Williams 521—19 seasons
17. Ernie Banks 512—19 seasons
17. Eddie Mathews 512—17 seasons
19. Mel Ott 511—22 seasons
20 Eddie Murray 504—21 seasons
21. Frank Thomas 497—18 seasons
22. Lou Gehrig 493—17 seasons
22. Fred McGriff 493—19 seasons
24. Alex Rodriguez 491—14 seasons
25. Manny Ramirez 481--15 seasons
25. Jim Thome 481--17 seasons
27. Stan Musial 475--22 seasons
27. Willie Stargel 475--21 seasons
29. Gary Sheffield 472--20 seasons
30. Dave Winfield 465--22 seasons

Top 30 in hits:

1.Pete Rose 4256—24 seasons
2.Ty Cobb 4189—24 seasons
3.Hank Aaron 3771—23 seasons
4.Stan Musial 3630—22 seasons
5.Tris Speaker 3514—22 seasons
6.Carl Yastrzemski 3419—23 seasons
7.Cap Anson 3418—27 seasons
8.Honus Wagner 3415—21 seasons
9.Paul Molitor 3319—21 seasons
10.Eddie Collins 3315—25 seasons
11.Willie Mays 3283—22 seasons
12.Eddie Murray 3255—21 seasons
13.Nap Lajoie 3242—21 seasons
14.Cal Ripken 3184—21 seasons
15.George Brett 3154—21 seasons
16.Paul Waner 3152—20 seasons
17.Robin Yount 3142—20 seasons
18.Tony Gwynn 3141—20 seasons
19.Dave Winfield 3110—22 seasons
20.Rickey Henderson 3055—25 seasons
21.Rod Carew 3053—19 seasons
22.Lou Brock 3023—19 seasons
23.Rafael Palmeiro 3020—20 seasons
24.Wade Boggs 3010—18 seasons
25.Al Kaline 3007—22 seasons
26.Roberto Clemente 3000—18 seasons
27.Craig Biggio 2992—20 seasons
28.Sam Rice 2987—20 seasons
29.Sam Crawford 2961—19 seasons
30.Frank Robinson 2943—21 seasons

Those are some impressive names on those two lists. I don't see Raffy in the class with all those guys, but he is on par with several of them. To me, they are all worthy of the HoF, but some deserve a special wing of the truly greats.

Only 7 guys are on both lists(Dave Winfield, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson, Rafael Palmeiro, Eddie Murray, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron) that I compiled and only 4 have both over 500 HRs and 3000 hits. Palmeiro is one of them. That is just impressive.

I know some of the numbers are skewed by the era he played, but there aren't a whole bunch of his contemporaries on both lists.

Him failing a drug test probably ended all arguments. I understand that.

Both Sosa and Palmero have the numbers, with out question, to get in. It's really not even close, IMO. The question of steroids is a difficult one to answer. I hate the fact that you have to deal with this but you have to. It would be great if you could just have players who were clean in the HOF. That's never going to happen because you simply can't go however long it takes to get a handle on this, without sending players to the Hall. Griffey Jr. and ARod may both hit 500 before the season is over. What happens to them when it's there time? Do you say that they also can't get in? I don't think either of them used but how can you know for sure? Just sucks you have to deal with this but in the end, that's how it's going to be.

 

[Danny White]

Both Sosa and Palmero have the numbers, with out question, to get in. It's really not even close, IMO. The question of steroids is a difficult one to answer. I hate the fact that you have to deal with this but you have to. It would be great if you could just have players who were clean in the HOF. That's never going to happen because you simply can't go however long it takes to get a handle on this, without sending players to the Hall. Griffey Jr. and ARod may both hit 500 before the season is over. What happens to them when it's there time? Do you say that they also can't get in? I don't think either of them used but how can you know for sure? Just sucks you have to deal with this but in the end, that's how it's going to be.

Big difference... with ARod and Griffey, true, you can't know for sure.

With Raffy, you DO know for sure... with Sosa, you can be pretty sure, and you know he's definitely a cheater, steroids or not.

 

[Mavs Man]

Big difference... with ARod and Griffey, true, you can't know for sure.

With Raffy, you DO know for sure... with Sosa, you can be pretty sure, and you know he's definitely a cheater, steroids or not.

But there's a long history of cheaters getting voted into the Hall of Fame. Look at basketball. Wilt did it. Magic did it. Kobe isn't in the Hall yet, but he will be.

Oh, wait - wrong cheating. My mistake.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But there's a long history of cheaters getting voted into the Hall of Fame. Look at basketball. Wilt did it. Magic did it. Kobe isn't in the Hall yet, but he will be.

Oh, wait - wrong cheating. My mistake.

LOL.....

I'm getting the feeling that you don't really like the Lakers.

:laugh2:

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Big difference... with ARod and Griffey, true, you can't know for sure.

With Raffy, you DO know for sure... with Sosa, you can be pretty sure, and you know he's definitely a cheater, steroids or not.

I don't really think that there's going to be a big difference. The longer we go with this, the more will come out. We will find that we have already inducted guys into the hall that were using. We are also going to find guys we never thought used, using. What's going to happen here, IMO, is that the lines are going to seriously get blurred.

In the end, you either have to make a decision that your going to forget about it and allow them in or allow nobody in during this era. Even now, we can't test for HGH. There are players, right now, who are dirty and we can not prove it. Your going to have to let them in IMO. No way around it.

 

[Mavs Man]

LOL.....

I'm getting the feeling that you don't really like the Lakers.

:laugh2:

Huh. I guess I did use all Lakers.

There's several NFL teams I dislike, but honestly I can't think of an NBA team I have a serious grudge against. There are a lot of bonehead players and GMs, though. There are quite a few NBA executives that make Matt Millen look like a genius.

 

[joseephuss]

I don't really think that there's going to be a big difference. The longer we go with this, the more will come out. We will find that we have already inducted guys into the hall that were using. We are also going to find guys we never thought used, using. What's going to happen here, IMO, is that the lines are going to seriously get blurred.

In the end, you either have to make a decision that your going to forget about it and allow them in or allow nobody in during this era. Even now, we can't test for HGH. There are players, right now, who are dirty and we can not prove it. Your going to have to let them in IMO. No way around it.

The lines are blurred. Like you said there is no test for HGH. There are several legal and acceptable performance enhancing supplements that can greatly help a player that weren't available in the past. There is some stuff that is almost as good as steroids. It is the evolution of sports.

Athletes have lots more money than they did 50 years ago or even just 20 years ago. Since baseball is so old it makes a greater difference. More money equals more time to work out and practice. Players used to need real jobs in order to make ends meet. That is not the case any more. There is also cutting edge work out systems.

Just blurred lines.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The lines are blurred. Like you said there is no test for HGH. There are several legal and acceptable performance enhancing supplements that can greatly help a player that weren't available in the past. There is some stuff that is almost as good as steroids. It is the evolution of sports.

Athletes have lots more money than they did 50 years ago or even just 20 years ago. Since baseball is so old it makes a greater difference. More money equals more time to work out and practice. Players used to need real jobs in order to make ends meet. That is not the case any more. There is also cutting edge work out systems.

Just blurred lines.

Yep. In the end, I think baseball and what few fans it has left are going to have to suck it up and live with it. I hate it because I am a fan for many years but that's the reality IMO. There's just no getting around it. Science Fiction has come to baseball (all sports really) and we aint never getting that Genie back in the bottle.