Serious question about money for O. Linemen right now...

newlander

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What the 'F' is going on? Hutchinson is an animal. Easily the best guard in the league. That's why Minny spent 49 mil on him. But Dockery and Steinbach? You've got to be kidding me. I hope the midget in DC does give Davis big money. It will turn out just like all the rest of their signings. :laugh1:
 

iceberg

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newlander;1402298 said:
What the 'F' is going on? Hutchinson is an animal. Easily the best guard in the league. That's why Minny spent 49 mil on him. But Dockery and Steinbach? You've got to be kidding me. I hope the midget in DC does give Davis big money. It will turn out just like all the rest of their signings. :laugh1:

salary cap goes up, salaries go up.

logic isn't that hard.
 

NoLuv4Jerry

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I hope he does not...Davis is a mountain of a man that would make the running game impossible to control if the plug him in at guard
 

Cajuncowboy

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I think it's a case of teams having money to spend and if they are not willing to overspend then they fear that they will be viewed as not wanting to win and stuff. That's why the skins are always out there looking like fools spending boat loads of money and getting #6 picks overall for their efforts.

It's crazy but remember, there is another round of cuts coming in June and there may be someone out there then that we can use on the OL.
 

Mansta54

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bbailey423;1402305 said:
I hope he does not...Davis is a mountain of a man that would make the running game impossible to control if the plug him in at guard

I keep saying, Davis is a MONSTER at OG. I'd love to have him on our oline..
 

NoLuv4Jerry

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Mansta54;1402313 said:
I keep saying, Davis is a MONSTER at OG. I'd love to have him on our oline..
I see you are from the DC area....I live in Chantilly, VA...about 10 mins from Commanders headquarters. I noticed you totally disagreed with me earlier...when I said we are suffering from passing up on Marcus McNeil. That's cool, agreeing to disagree makes this board interesting. But when Jacob Rogers and Al Johnson and Stephen Peterman...when NONE OF THOSE CATS are on the team or on an NFL roster for that matter...it just hurts. I mean not one of them panned out...and why the heck did we wait until the end of the draft last year to address the OL. I don't care what any of you all say...that is just killing us. Then you know who quits on us and Jerry is LEFT scrambling to field an OL in a year we should be making a run at the whole thing...are handling of the OL was just stupid and now it is embarassing.
 

newlander

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With all due respect, have you seen this guy play? I have, and he opened NO holes for Cardinal running backs including Emmitt and the Edge. No mobility and no toughness- VERY average. If he wasn't why would a respected O. Line coach like Russ Grimm not want him back? I dont' want to hear about his size. Everyone thought Aaron Gibson would maul people and he didn't either. Just re-sign Columbo and try to find a mauler at Guard in the draft. :bang2:
 

ZeroClub

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bbailey423;1402326 said:
I see you are from the DC area....I live in Chantilly, VA...about 10 mins from Commanders headquarters. I noticed you totally disagreed with me earlier...when I said we are suffering from passing up on Marcus McNeil. That's cool, agreeing to disagree makes this board interesting. But when Jacob Rogers and Al Johnson and Stephen Peterman...when NONE OF THOSE CATS are on the team or on an NFL roster for that matter...it just hurts. I mean not one of them panned out...and why the heck did we wait until the end of the draft last year to address the OL. I don't care what any of you all say...that is just killing us. Then you know who quits on us and Jerry is LEFT scrambling to field an OL in a year we should be making a run at the whole thing...are handling of the OL was just stupid and now it is embarassing.
Sure, it hurts when the team whiffs on draft choices and free agents, especially when it happens several times at a particular position.

It happened at QB for a while too.

But the Cowboys did a good job signing Kosier. McQuistan is said to be a promising find who came cheap. Colombo may or may not be gone, but at the very least he was an adequate stopgap at RT last year and he came cheap.

It is difficult to fault the Cowboys for signing Rivera. The guy was a Pro Bowl guard who just happened to damage his back on a treadmill not long after signing with the Cowboys. That's just some bad luck.

I don't think things are so horrible right now. Most of the free agency period is still ahead. The draft has yet to occur.

And Jerry Jones is not a stupid man. If he didn't understand the importance of the OL before 2005, he learned it in 2005. Jones will address the OL situation. Here's hoping that he does so effectively and that luck is on his side.
 

Bizwah

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ZeroClub;1402372 said:
Sure, it hurts when the team whiffs on draft choices and free agents, especially when it happens several times at a particular position.

It happened at QB for a while too.

But the Cowboys did a good job signing Kosier. McQuistan is said to be a promising find who came cheap. Colombo may or may not be gone, but at the very least he was an adequate stopgap at RT last year and he came cheap.

It is difficult to fault the Cowboys for signing Rivera. The guy was a Pro Bowl guard who just happened to damage his back on a treadmill not long after signing with the Cowboys. That's just some bad luck.

I don't think things are so horrible right now. Most of the free agency period is still ahead. The draft has yet to occur.

And Jerry Jones is not a stupid man. If he didn't understand the importance of the OL before 2005, he learned it in 2005. Jones will address the OL situation. Here's hoping that he does so effectively and that luck is on his side.

Good post.

I don't know what we had planned coming into FA. I would be surprised if we did NOTHING.

I have very little confidence in Jerry anymore. We've been Just A Team since winning SB 30.
 

MichaelWinicki

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bbailey423;1402305 said:
I hope he does not...Davis is a mountain of a man that would make the running game impossible to control if the plug him in at guard

Yeah just like he did in Arizona. :rolleyes:
 

MichaelWinicki

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ZeroClub;1402372 said:
Sure, it hurts when the team whiffs on draft choices and free agents, especially when it happens several times at a particular position.

It happened at QB for a while too.

But the Cowboys did a good job signing Kosier. McQuistan is said to be a promising find who came cheap. Colombo may or may not be gone, but at the very least he was an adequate stopgap at RT last year and he came cheap.

It is difficult to fault the Cowboys for signing Rivera. The guy was a Pro Bowl guard who just happened to damage his back on a treadmill not long after signing with the Cowboys. That's just some bad luck.

I don't think things are so horrible right now. Most of the free agency period is still ahead. The draft has yet to occur.

And Jerry Jones is not a stupid man. If he didn't understand the importance of the OL before 2005, he learned it in 2005. Jones will address the OL situation. Here's hoping that he does so effectively and that luck is on his side.


I hate it when people bring level headed logic to the board.


It gives the "moon-howlers" in the crowd a bad name.
 

NoLuv4Jerry

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MichaelWinicki;1402405 said:
I hate it when people bring level headed logic to the board.


It gives the "moon-howlers" in the crowd a bad name.
Call us what you want...but you guys kill me...our OL sucked....and has sucked for a while...and why let facts get in the way...these are the facts...Flo, above abaverage BUT in the last year of his deal...Kosier, slightly above average...Gurode, above average and signed a new deal...Rivera, terrible and proably not even NFL starting material after his 2nd back surgery in as many years...RT....somewhere looking for a contract from anyone who will pay him what he wants. You can call some of us moon howlers if you want, butonce again here we are trying to figure out the OL..and there are those amongst us that see's this OL for what it is and how it has affected us for almost a decade now...and then there are those who call us moon howlers and trust in Jerry.

Look, I am not even blaming Jerry for this mess we have on the OL. The moves we have made in the draft and free agency scream Bill Parcells and is PROOF that Jerry let him run the show. I appreciate a lot of what he did, but the he did not draft Flo and he did not draft Gurode..the 2 best OL we have. So that means he is responsible for Kosier, Rivera and Colombo. Of those 3 ONLY one is likely to be a Cowboy next year. So again, I bleed silver and blue, but I am exhausted with this POS OL year after year.
 

DCBoysfan

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bbailey423;1402326 said:
I see you are from the DC area....I live in Chantilly, VA...about 10 mins from Commanders headquarters. I noticed you totally disagreed with me earlier...when I said we are suffering from passing up on Marcus McNeil. That's cool, agreeing to disagree makes this board interesting. But when Jacob Rogers and Al Johnson and Stephen Peterman...when NONE OF THOSE CATS are on the team or on an NFL roster for that matter...it just hurts. I mean not one of them panned out...and why the heck did we wait until the end of the draft last year to address the OL. I don't care what any of you all say...that is just killing us. Then you know who quits on us and Jerry is LEFT scrambling to field an OL in a year we should be making a run at the whole thing...are handling of the OL was just stupid and now it is embarassing.


I live in DC, and you are right all those OLineman we missed on are hurting us now, but there is no use crying over spilled milk. We need to address this line now so that we can make that run at the Bowl.
 

JFlgn

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bbailey423;1403322 said:
So that means he is responsible for Kosier, Rivera and Colombo. Of those 3 ONLY one is likely to be a Cowboy next year. So again, I bleed silver and blue, but I am exhausted with this POS OL year after year.

A little too early to concede the loss of Colombo.

As said earlier, you can't blame Rivera's lack of performance on Jerry or Bill. Dude had a freak accident that screwed up his disc. That's football, so you either heal the injured or replace the injured. That's what Jerry is trying to do.

I don't care what people's problems are with Big Lenny, but if you are all honest with yourself there is no denying that he will be better than Rivera as a RG and is currently the best guard available. He's still relatively young for an OG. That's improvement, and that's what Jerry is trying to do.

And for all who say that Davis' uninspired play in Arizona will continue as an OG for Dallas need to take a step back and look at a few things. First off, Jeff Ireland and the Cowboys scouting department have watched more plays of Big Lenny than any of you have so there must be a reason they believe he can be a guard for the Boys.

Secondly, Davis can draw comparisons to our very own Gurode. His best season before BillPa was here was at center. Coaches knew it and fans knew it but because of a lack of viable candidates at the guard position he was moved back to guard and continued to "under-achieve, play lazy, etc." but once he was put back to his natural position his play improved.

The same thing happened with Davis. He was the Cards' best candidate for LT even though he's a natural guard. Sure he let people go by him as a left tackle because the guy has the feet of a guard. Line up that 366 lbs across from Darwin Walker, Mike Patterson, Fred Robbins, Cofield, Salave'a or Cornelius Griffin and Romo will have the time he needs. No more #62 in his face as he throws.

All that said, the signing would suck if we don't bring back Colombo or find a legit RT.
 

iceberg

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MichaelWinicki;1402400 said:
Yeah just like he did in Arizona. :rolleyes:

just because the piece didn't fit in a previous puzzle doesn't automatically make it a bad piece.

davis is a solid player who can play more than 1 position. he seems to have a hate crowd who wanna poke fun at his fat but they scatter like roaches when a lite comes on when you show a pic of him in shape.

if we signed davis before the crazy crap started, we'd have a bargain. now we're going to have to pay going rate. the line must be fixed and i'm sorry, it's going to cost some $ to do it. it's going to take some good drafting also to do it.

funny how last year i wanted to pay going rate for hutch or bentley. wow, people threw rotton banannas at me and told me the line was fine. a year later it's the chicken little syndrome. yes bentley is now hurt but who knows if it would have happened if he were here.

we keep going 2nd tier and hoping and it keeps blowing up in our face. davis may not be the dominate player we'd love to have, but he's better than we do have so far and the bargain shoppers need to go suck a slurpee and hush.

let's sign davis and columbo and draft someone in the 2nd/3rd round and evaluate at the end of the year.

so he didn't have a good "career" in arizona. who has? he's the player we shoudl target right now adn we should stop the 2nd guessing and just sign him and move on.
 

NoLuv4Jerry

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iceberg;1403684 said:
just because the piece didn't fit in a previous puzzle doesn't automatically make it a bad piece.

davis is a solid player who can play more than 1 position. he seems to have a hate crowd who wanna poke fun at his fat but they scatter like roaches when a lite comes on when you show a pic of him in shape.

if we signed davis before the crazy crap started, we'd have a bargain. now we're going to have to pay going rate. the line must be fixed and i'm sorry, it's going to cost some $ to do it. it's going to take some good drafting also to do it.

funny how last year i wanted to pay going rate for hutch or bentley. wow, people threw rotton banannas at me and told me the line was fine. a year later it's the chicken little syndrome. yes bentley is now hurt but who knows if it would have happened if he were here.

we keep going 2nd tier and hoping and it keeps blowing up in our face. davis may not be the dominate player we'd love to have, but he's better than we do have so far and the bargain shoppers need to go suck a slurpee and hush.

let's sign davis and columbo and draft someone in the 2nd/3rd round and evaluate at the end of the year.

so he didn't have a good "career" in arizona. who has? he's the player we shoudl target right now adn we should stop the 2nd guessing and just sign him and move on.


I KNOW we all bleed silver and blue...but there is a contingent amongst us "who think the line is fine"...then there those amongst us, of which I am one, who thinks the line is crap. I got banned from another Cowboys board for sounding the alarm about the Cowboys OL during the Parcells era. In fact the straw that brike the camel's back was when I declared "Parcells tenure in Dallas will be decided by the OL"...that got the mods steamed and I was gone. I wish we can keep a thread on the OL going, so the people who get defensive about the OL or think the OL is "fine" can enlighten the rest of us on what we cleary do NOT see. Football starts in the trenches...we have whiffed in the draft...we have whiffed in free agency....we go 7th round in te draft because we get scared and don't trust our scouts....this after there was a scout standing on the table during the draft begging us not to touch Jacob Roger, yet YOU KNOW WHO insisted on drafting him and YOU KNOW WHO got his wish. Then he tries to pawn Rob Pettiti off on us in effort to save face for wasting both Jerry's money AND a 2nd round pick. And to think YOU KNOW WHO wanted to run Gurode out of here...luckily someone within the organization did not let YOU KNOW WHO get his way.

But back to the subject at hand....I am being dead serious...I would like the optimists to paint a picture of what the have SEEN from the OL currently employed by the Dallas Cowboys that suggests we are poised to make a run at the Bowl with this group
 

burmafrd

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some peoples hate for BP really has blinded them to reality. When BP got here we had a LOUSY O line. Or do you remember 2002? It has improved. And it is because BP worked at it. Yes he made mistakes- Rogers being the worst. Peterman was highly rated by scout services- and he was a bust. Johnson gave us 2 years of at least Decent center play. And it was BP that decided to give Gurode one last chance after 2005 when he tried to be a center again but could not beat out Johnson. It was also BP that gave Columbo one last chance and the guy gave us a good season at RT. We also have McQ who has drawn a lot of interest from other teams. The lineis better and should continue to improve and its because BP worked at it. You talk about facts but you cherry pick the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't.
 

newlander

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bbailey has good points, but every team in the league has had their O.Line disasters in the draft and free agency. Tony Mandarich ring a bell? Bottom line: it's an inexact science and when you get a PROVEN lineman that is effective, well.......you've seen the numbers the last few days: they're apparently invaluable. Our doctor projects my son to be about 6'5" and 270 lbs. Two positions in mind at this point: 1) Left tackle 2) Long snapper. 'Nuff said.
 

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Just consider back when Curt Flood decided that he didn't have anything to lose, and wanted to challenge the concept that a player couldn't have the right to have a say in where he went as a player...He decided that he would just buck the 'ol system, and demand a right to call where he as a player would go. At least some point in his career. Lo and behold, the concept of free agency was introduced into the sporting level at the professional point.

This had dramatic affects upon the NFL and the professional sports industry...because Mr. Flood decided that he had the right.

Well, things evolved since that time, as Jerry Jones fought to bring equality into the dealings of the NFL...and the cap era was launched. Like it or not, it has brought about the ability of a well managed organization to have a relatively short turn around to achieve success.

Here, although-the Cowboys have dragged their feet in futility for a period of some ten plus years.

Prior to this past season, the Union backed negotiations for the Labor Agreement, won a ton of positives for the player...well, those hard fought and long in coming opportunities are starting to find fruition in the free agency this year.

What we are seeing now, is there is NO position that is limited by tradition or league tendencies, from being able to command a top end level of the market place. Fullbacks, guards, and safeties have worked their way up to the top end levels of the pay spectrum. This is a no turning back point for the NFL.

Now, the Cowboys can own up to the current market demands, or once again adapt slowly, and lose out on the opportunities of a whole franchise. Now the market has changed, and they had better get wise to it's demands and affects on franchise responses. Here, if Jerry is not very astute in possibilities, his franchise will head towards something of a 'black-hole' in tendency, and again start losing the advantages that it has just sacrificed and built up over the past four years.

The fixing of the Dallas offensive line is a major component to the team's ability to win the final game of the year. They are fooling theirselves if they thing they will be able to acquire a pair of rookies, or even low performers in the free agency, and accomplish this. To get middle of the road to good talent today, you have to go the market price for it. You can attempt to generalize and candy coat the end product, but you get what you pay for.. and this IS the market now.

Getting both Colombo and Davis is not the top of the talent pool, but they are both significant enough in affect to the whole team, to warrant their immediate signing as well as the negotiated contracts that can make them doable, even at the current market levels....the ball is in Dallas' court. The players are merely matching the demands that have escalated due to team participation, over the past four seasons.

When even New England is joining the bandwagon effort at acquiring expensive talent, the Cowboys better start matching efforts, or they again will merely fall behind...

...don't kid yourself.
 

Cbz40

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CCBoy;1403832 said:
Just consider back when Curt Flood decided that he didn't have anything to lose, and wanted to challenge the concept that a player couldn't have the right to have a say in where he went as a player...He decided that he would just buck the 'ol system, and demand a right to call where he as a player would go. At least some point in his career. Lo and behold, the concept of free agency was introduced into the sporting level at the professional point.

This had dramatic affects upon the NFL and the professional sports industry...because Mr. Flood decided that he had the right.

Well, things evolved since that time, as Jerry Jones fought to bring equality into the dealings of the NFL...and the cap era was launched. Like it or not, it has brought about the ability of a well managed organization to have a relatively short turn around to achieve success.

Here, although-the Cowboys have dragged their feet in futility for a period of some ten plus years.

Prior to this past season, the Union backed negotiations for the Labot Agreement, won a ton of positives for the player...well, those hard fought and long in coming opportunities are starting to find fruition in the free agency this year.

What we are seeing now, is there is NO position that is limited by tradition or league tendencies, from being able to command a top end level of the market place. Fullbacks, guards, and safeties have worked their way up to the top end levels of the pay spectrum. This is a no turning back point for the NFL.

Now, the Cowboys can own up to the current market demands, or once again adapt slowly, and lose out on the opportunities of a whole franchise. Now the market has changed, and they had better get wise to it's demands and affects on franchise responses. Here, if Jerry is not very astute in possibilities, his franchise will head towards something of a 'black-hole' in tendency, and again start losing the advantages that it has just sacrificed and built up over the past four years.

The fixing of the Dallas offensive line is a major component to the team's ability to win the final game of the year. They are fooling theirselves if they thing they will be able to acquire a pair of rookies, or even low performers in the free agency, and accomplish this. To get middle of the road to good talent today, you have to go the market price for it. You can attempt to generalize and candy coat the end product, but you get what you pay for.. and this IS the market now.

Getting both Colombo and Davis is not the top of the talent pool, but they are both significant enough in affect to the whole team, to warrant their immediate signing as well as the negotiated contracts that can make them doable, even at the current market levels....the ball is in Dallas' court. The players are merely matching the demands that have escalated due to team participation, over the past four seasons.

When even New England is joining the bandwagon effort at acquiring expensive talent, the Cowboys better start matching efforts, or they again will merely fall behind...

...don't kid yourself.


Excellent post Sir.

My pick as post of the weekend......;)
 
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