Shots fired at Super Bowl parade

[Rockport]

Technically it's accurate. It amazes me that we don't have a firm definition of what a mass shooting is, but we don't. The FBI has a very open ended definition of what a mass shooting is and differs from situation to situation. The DOJ, at least in the past, has defined a mass shooting as having to result in 4 or more deaths. Technically under this definition the super bowl parade incident wouldn't even be considered a mass shooting event, which is pretty ridiculous.

Why do you have to argue over semantics on such an important topic. That’s the problem. People don’t want to address the elephant in the room and instead talk around the issue like you just to try and ignore the real issue.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Why do you have to argue over semantics on such an important topic. That’s the problem. People don’t want to address the elephant in the room and instead talk around the issue like you just to try and ignore the real issue.

I'm not trying to talk around the issue at all, but when we have numbers so far apart the semantics start to matter IMO. Part of the issue overall is a lack of definition and a lack of transparency. When one side says there have been 600+ mass shootings in the last year the other side chalks it up as BS and finds fault in those numbers to dismiss it. One side takes it as truth, the other takes it as lies. When one side says their have been 13 mass shootings the other side chalks it up as BS and finds fault to dismiss it. One side takes it as truth, the other as lies. Nothing ever changes because we continue to be arguing from two different ends of the spectrum and going off of two different definitions of what the issues are. Reality is the truth lies somewhere in the middle, yet we continue to argue the extremes.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I'm all for evaluating ways to lower gun violence rates. I just don't see how anything ever gets done when we aren't open/honest about the data though. For example in this thread you mentioned that Canada has had 5 mass shootings ever....One google search shows that to be false....at least by this wikipedia definition of mass shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Canada

I'm not bringing that up to call you out or anything, but when most people see that they are not likely to want to find the middle ground with you which is where actual solution finding takes place. This is the biggest problem with our current government and media structure in the 2020s and has been for a while now.

 

[Robbieac]

Why do you have to argue over semantics on such an important topic. That’s the problem. People don’t want to address the elephant in the room and instead talk around the issue like you just to try and ignore the real issue.

The elephant in the room is the lack of morals, and the overall sinful degradation of society.

 

[VaqueroTD]

I'm not trying to talk around the issue at all, but when we have numbers so far apart the semantics start to matter IMO. Part of the issue overall is a lack of definition and a lack of transparency. When one side says there have been 600+ mass shootings in the last year the other side chalks it up as BS and finds fault in those numbers to dismiss it. One side takes it as truth, the other takes it as lies. When one side says their have been 13 mass shootings the other side chalks it up as BS and finds fault to dismiss it. One side takes it as truth, the other as lies. Nothing ever changes because we continue to be arguing from two different ends of the spectrum and going off of two different definitions of what the issues are. Reality is the truth lies somewhere in the middle, yet we continue to argue the extremes.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I'm all for evaluating ways to lower gun violence rates. I just don't see how anything ever gets done when we aren't open/honest about the data though. For example in this thread you mentioned that Canada has had 5 mass shootings ever....One google search shows that to be false....at least by this wikipedia definition of mass shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Canada

I'm not bringing that up to call you out or anything, but when most people see that they are not likely to want to find the middle ground with you which is where actual solution finding takes place. This is the biggest problem with our current government and media structure in the 2020s and has been for a while now.

I agree, they should use clearer definitions on motive and type of shooting. Lumping them all together is just trying to create numbers, and like you say, will never solve anything because they’re going to get called out on their BS. Because I agree with people that a targeted gang shooting in the big city that hits bystanders is different than an active shooter who walks into a random grocery store and just start shooting anyone.

They’re both screwed up, they both are from society decay, and they both probably involved some mental health issues. Kids in the ghetto don’t have money or time to worry about that, but it doesn’t mean the gangbanger who likes killing doesn’t have some serious psychological damage.

But fair or not, I think the gangland shooting is accepted collateral damage. We have a country that started with Indian wars, Wild West outlaws, made gangsters famous during prohibition, and so on… We have a violent history, and guns are part of our society in a way someone from Europe probably wouldn’t understand. Doesn’t make it right, but it’s just the culture that we have spawned.

The elephant in the room is the lack of morals, and the overall sinful degradation of society.

I still think the elephant in the room is mental illness. Almost all of the solo random active shooters can be linked to mental illness.

 

[Rockport]

The elephant in the room is the lack of morals, and the overall sinful degradation of society.

Evidence here every day.

 

[Robbieac]

Evidence here every day.

I agree.
Attacking other posters. Calling people names. Degrading others.
Etc, etc…..

 

[Creeper]

Why are we ignoring the common element of almost every non-gang related mass shooting? Mental illness. For whatever reason mental illness is increasing in America. We see it in many different forms but all too often mass shooters are suffering from some form of mental illness that has driven them to commit mass murder. Mentally ill people do no process what they see and hear the way normal people do. We see a mass shooting and we are horrified. They see it as a means of getting attention, or acting out.

Studies show over and over again, kids in schools are confused,, learning less, and acting out more. I don't know the answers, but I am pretty sure ignoring it or enabling it is not going to work in the long run.

 

[Robbieac]

Why are we ignoring the common element of almost every non-gang related mass shooting? Mental illness. For whatever reason mental illness is increasing in America. We see it in many different forms but all too often mass shooters are suffering from some form of mental illness that has driven them to commit mass murder. Mentally ill people do no process what they see and hear the way normal people do. We see a mass shooting and we are horrified. They see it as a means of getting attention, or acting out.

Studies show over and over again, kids in schools are confused,, learning less, and acting out more. I don't know the answers, but I am pretty sure ignoring it or enabling it is not going to work in the long run.

I don’t disagree.

But what is causing the increase in mental illness?

The answer is easy. Our society is lacking something important in our lives. That topic however, cannot be discussed much in this forum unfortunately.

 

[VaqueroTD]

I don’t disagree.

But what is causing the increase in mental illness?

The answer is easy. Our society is lacking something important in our lives. That topic however, cannot be discussed much in this forum unfortunately.

I’ll try. A lot more fun than talking about the Cowboys these days, that’s for sure. My 3 guesses….

1) Nothing Is different. There have always been mass killings.The technology and science is different. Today we argue about how many civilians get killed in war. Go back as lately as WWII, the Civil War, and especially ancient history, and you won’t find that. Not that long ago we locked up crazy people in sanitariums or just let it, instead of trying to cure them. Mental illness was always there. Hundreds of domestic mass killings were often done against segments of the population that didn’t get the same rights, and rarely prosecuted until the last 50 years. Another example: Someone blew a bomb up in the middle of a packed Wall Street in the early 1920s. Never solved. But It’s almost forgotten. Imagine that today? They would already be five documentaries, two films, a mini-series and a commemorative coin collection about it. Until only the last 20 years, no mass media 24/7 in your face to make it feel like it was happening every day. The guns and bullets are more efficient and easier to obtain, and anyone with a phone (including the killer!) can get the news out, which can unfortunately inspire others on the fringe. Progress gives you the good with the bad.

2) Lack of effective mental health treatment. Especially considering what I just wrote above, The science and diagnosis has progressed much faster than the treatment. I won’t get into all the p-word of this but we all know healthcare has huge problems here. Mental illness was rarely even covered on most cheap plans until recent laws. Not affordable, no thorough treatment, and to make it worse, there is a social stigma on this. Imagine if you’re hearing voices or some of these extremely rough cases that the active shooters are experiencing? Why would you go to anyone about that?

3) Higher meaning has changed. It’s a consumer society where our higher meaning is the bigger and better toys, house or vacation. It’s easy to see why so many people are depressed and feel hopeless. Your social media account doesn’t get any likes, your LinkedIn isn’t spiffy enough for a new job, your TV commercials tell you you’re too fat. Whatever you find it through… love of family, organized religion, nature, volunteering…. I think it’s more important than ever to be grounded with all of the above mentioned distractions.

 

[HungryLion]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people
Not responsible enough to handle their right to bear arms in a reasonable manner.

The issue becomes controlling the people not responsible enough without infringing on the rights of those who are responsible enough.

That’s a problem our society still hasn’t figured out. It’s a tough one.

 

[Creeper]

I’ll try. A lot more fun than talking about the Cowboys these days, that’s for sure. My 3 guesses….

1) Nothing Is different. There have always been mass killings.The technology and science is different. Today we argue about how many civilians get killed in war. Go back as lately as WWII, the Civil War, and especially ancient history, and you won’t find that. Not that long ago we locked up crazy people in sanitariums or just let it, instead of trying to cure them. Mental illness was always there. Hundreds of domestic mass killings were often done against segments of the population that didn’t get the same rights, and rarely prosecuted until the last 50 years. Another example: Someone blew a bomb up in the middle of a packed Wall Street in the early 1920s. Never solved. But It’s almost forgotten. Imagine that today? They would already be five documentaries, two films, a mini-series and a commemorative coin collection about it. Until only the last 20 years, no mass media 24/7 in your face to make it feel like it was happening every day. The guns and bullets are more efficient and easier to obtain, and anyone with a phone (including the killer!) can get the news out, which can unfortunately inspire others on the fringe. Progress gives you the good with the bad.

2) Lack of effective mental health treatment. Especially considering what I just wrote above, The science and diagnosis has progressed much faster than the treatment. I won’t get into all the p-word of this but we all know healthcare has huge problems here. Mental illness was rarely even covered on most cheap plans until recent laws. Not affordable, no thorough treatment, and to make it worse, there is a social stigma on this. Imagine if you’re hearing voices or some of these extremely rough cases that the active shooters are experiencing? Why would you go to anyone about that?

3) Higher meaning has changed. It’s a consumer society where our higher meaning is the bigger and better toys, house or vacation. It’s easy to see why so many people are depressed and feel hopeless. Your social media account doesn’t get any likes, your LinkedIn isn’t spiffy enough for a new job, your TV commercials tell you you’re too fat. Whatever you find it through… love of family, organized religion, nature, volunteering…. I think it’s more important than ever to be grounded with all of the above mentioned distractions.

When I refer to mental illness today, I am not talking about psychosis. Of course there have always been crazy people. But today we have something a little different. People are unable to cope with their emotions. They act out in horrific ways even though they are not openly psychotic. Unhappiness becomes depression, becomes neurosis. Some of the shooters gave no indications to the people around them were losing it. After the fact people might say, "come to think of it he was acting a little weird", but otherwise they paid no attention. I agree we are not treating mental illness properly. First, we must recognize it is mental illness. IMO, the American Psychology Association are grotesquely failed in this regard.

There is also no doubt Americans have a culture of violence. That coupled with a breakdown in morality and mental health equals danger.

 

[Robbieac]

When I refer to mental illness today, I am not talking about psychosis. Of course there have always been crazy people. But today we have something a little different. People are unable to cope with their emotions. They act out in horrific ways even though they are not openly psychotic. Unhappiness becomes depression, becomes neurosis. Some of the shooters gave no indications to the people around them were losing it. After the fact people might say, "come to think of it he was acting a little weird", but otherwise they paid no attention. I agree we are not treating mental illness properly. First, we must recognize it is mental illness. IMO, the American Psychology Association are grotesquely failed in this regard.

There is also no doubt Americans have a culture of violence. That coupled with a breakdown in morality and mental health equals danger.