Should Hardy Appeal, or Nah?

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JoeKing

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If he's not guilty of beating this woman, he MUST appeal.
In this climate, you simply can't risk not appealing.
If you accept a two-game suspension, people will assume you are admitting some capability in the case.
If she was indeed crazy and set you up, then you have to appeal it.

Exactly right. This is about more than a game and how many times you play. There are still a ton of people out there that think he is a woman beater. Some of those people you will never be able sway but many just don't know all the facts and are just going by what they've heard. He knows in his heart whether he beat her or not... after going through all that he has, he should be more motivated than ever in removing any doubt about what happen in the view of as many people as possible. I believe in Greg Hardy and would expect nothing but full exoneration before he stops fighting for his good name.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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He should send Luca Brasi to pay a cordial visit.

3986446-luca+brasi.jpg

Luca Brasi sleeps with the Fishes............
 

Plumfool

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Exactly right. This is about more than a game and how many times you play. There are still a ton of people out there that think he is a woman beater. Some of those people you will never be able sway but many just don't know all the facts and are just going by what they've heard. He knows in his heart whether he beat her or not... after going through all that he has, he should be more motivated than ever in removing any doubt about what happen in the view of as many people as possible. I believe in Greg Hardy and would expect nothing but full exoneration before he stops fighting for his good name.

I agree.
 

casmith07

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Wow, so the conversation here took a turn towards the merits of the case.

Hopefully we can set that stuff aside and talk about the appeal standing alone given the evidence at hand, namely:

  • that there was a misdemeanor conviction;
  • that the conviction was appealed by Greg Hardy to a jury trial;
  • that the charges were dismissed with prejudice;
  • and, that the original suspension of 10 games was reduced to 4 games by Harold Henderson.
 

coult44

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I know you think he beat a woman. God forbid someone disagree with you. Shame on me for believing a man is innocent until proven guilty. How terrible of me.

So , with the photos that the court and the NFL seen, do you think she just fell down the stairs? Regardless of any reason, even if she hit him with a bat, he should have never paid a hand on her. For that, he is what he is. Can he move forward? Yes. Does he deserve another chance? Yes. But for what he did, he's guilty.
 

JoeKing

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So , with the photos that the court and the NFL seen, do you think she just fell down the stairs? Regardless of any reason, even if she hit him with a bat, he should have never paid a hand on her. For that, he is what he is. Can he move forward? Yes. Does he deserve another chance? Yes. But for what he did, he's guilty.

The photos. Folks keep bringing them up thinking they are so condemning without actually having seen them. So they use their imaginations and conjure up horrible images and then it's easy to think Hardy is a cruel man... except it's not based on anything factual. It's a he said she said... and I believe he is innocent until proven guilty. Who's says he laid a hand on her? He is what he is... an innocent man. What ever you think he did only exist in your imagination that you conjured up in those photos that have never seen the light of day in public. And even when they do, what will they prove... the he said or the she said? Neither. She got blooded and bruised but there is no provable accounting to who's hands caused those injuries. Crazy(or drugged)(or desperate) people do desperate/crazy things so it is in the realm of possibility she injured herself. That is his story. I believe him.
 

Nightman

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Wow, so the conversation here took a turn towards the merits of the case.

Hopefully we can set that stuff aside and talk about the appeal standing alone given the evidence at hand, namely:

  • that there was a misdemeanor conviction;
  • that the conviction was appealed by Greg Hardy to a jury trial;
  • that the charges were dismissed with prejudice;
  • and, that the original suspension of 10 games was reduced to 4 games by Harold Henderson.

I don't know how you are supposed to separate the two. If he is not guilty of what he is accused of that is a pretty good reason to appeal.
 

Rogah

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I know you think he beat a woman. God forbid someone disagree with you. Shame on me for believing a man is innocent until proven guilty. How terrible of me.
Well guess what? He was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. As we all know, charges were dropped on appeal, but those of us in this forum are certainly not beholden to that when making our own determinations.
 

Rogah

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Wow, so the conversation here took a turn towards the merits of the case.

Hopefully we can set that stuff aside and talk about the appeal standing alone given the evidence at hand, namely:

  • that there was a misdemeanor conviction;
  • that the conviction was appealed by Greg Hardy to a jury trial;
  • that the charges were dismissed with prejudice;
  • and, that the original suspension of 10 games was reduced to 4 games by Harold Henderson.
I don't think #3 is accurate. The reports I've read say no one knows for sure, but they were probably dismissed without prejudice.

I honestly admit I don't know for sure, so if you have a source which is definitive, I would be interested in reading it.
 

Rogah

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The photos. Folks keep bringing them up thinking they are so condemning without actually having seen them. So they use their imaginations and conjure up horrible images and then it's easy to think Hardy is a cruel man... except it's not based on anything factual.
It is not based on "our imaginations," it is based on the first hand account of someone who actually did see them.

"The net effect of these acts was that Ms. Holder was severely traumatized and sustained a range of injuries, including bruises and scratches on her neck, shoulders, upper chest, back, arms and feet." - Roger Goodell letter to Greg Hardy. Geez, you'd think Greg Hardy would file a defamation lawsuit against the league for those statements since he is actually innocent!

Must be nice living in your polyanna world where anyone wearing a star in Sunday is pure as the wind driven snow.
 

JoeKing

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Well guess what? He was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. As we all know, charges were dropped on appeal, but those of us in this forum are certainly not beholden to that when making our own determinations.

Bench trail verdict means squat when it won't stand up to scrutiny in a jury trail... that is the real reason the verdict was vacated. You can and obviously do believe what ever you want... but the facts in the case don't support it and the prosecutor knew that when he declined to pursue the charges in appeal. They could have proceeded without the alleged victims cooperation if the evidence is really so strong. With no standing conviction he is innocent.
 

JoeKing

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It is not based on "our imaginations," it is based on the first hand account of someone who actually did see them.

"The net effect of these acts was that Ms. Holder was severely traumatized and sustained a range of injuries, including bruises and scratches on her neck, shoulders, upper chest, back, arms and feet." - Roger Goodell letter to Greg Hardy. Geez, you'd think Greg Hardy would file a defamation lawsuit against the league for those statements since he is actually innocent!

Must be nice living in your polyanna world where anyone wearing a star in Sunday is pure as the wind driven snow.

Your imagination has gotten the better of you. The picture painted by Goodell's words have you believing what ever you want to believe... you are so gullible. I'm sure the pictures present a bruised woman but they don't prove it was by Hardy's hand. Goodell can't derive who caused these injuries by the pictures. He is making assumptions and so are you.
 

Rogah

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Bench trail verdict means squat when it won't stand up to scrutiny in a jury trail...
This forum is neither a bench trial nor a jury trial. For you to apply the "guilty until proven innocent" standard is just looking for an excuse to defend the guy (because of the uniform he now wears). According to that logic, O.J. didn't kill Nicole.

She probably just did it to herself too, huh?
You can and obviously do believe what ever you want... but the facts in the case don't support it and the prosecutor knew that when he declined to pursue the charges in appeal.
What you're saying makes no sense. They prosecutor brought this case to trial. He won. Prosecutors don't get discouraged and drop charges after winning unless something happens like the victim refuses to cooperate further.
They could have proceeded without the alleged victims cooperation if the evidence is really so strong.
No, they really can't - which Is why Mr. Pure and Innocent bought her silence.
 

Rogah

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Your imagination has gotten the better of you. The picture painted by Goodell's words have you believing what ever you want to believe... you are so gullible.
Yeah. Sure. I'm gullible. This from the guy who believes Hardy when he says all those bruises and cuts were self inflicted.
I'm sure the pictures present a bruised woman but they don't prove it was by Hardy's hand. Goodell can't derive who caused these injuries by the pictures. He is making assumptions and so are you.
:facepalm:
 

Kaiser

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Apparently some of you guys need to take some classes on reading comprehension because this thread is about if Hardy should appeal the 4 game suspension, not about the merits of the case..

But that would interfere with one posters pathological need to feel morally superior to everyone else, regardless of the facts involved.
 

Jarv

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What are you talking about? The NFL suspended the guy for 10 games. If those pictures are as bad as Goodell says there are, the only party that looks bad is Hardy himself. Goodell actually comes out looking good for being as tough on the guy as possible.
Good luck with that.

I hope it's reduced to zero games, just to prove you wrong again...
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Doty decision said:
The parties’ relationship is governed by the Collective Bargaining Agreement signed on August 4, 2011 (CBA). NFLPA Ex. 1. Relevant here, Article 46 of the CBA authorizes the Commissioner to impose discipline on NFL players for “conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game.” See id. § 1(a). Article 46 allows a player to appeal the Commissioner’s disciplinary decision to a hearing officer appointed by the Commissioner. See id. § 2(a). The Standard NFL Player Contract, which is part of the CBA, further provides that on a finding of conduct detrimental to the league, the Commissioner “will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing ... to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.” Id. Ex. 1A ¶ 15. The NFL’s Personal Conduct Policy (Policy), which is revised periodically, sets forth what constitutes conduct detrimental to the league and what discipline may follow. See id. Ex. 2.

Here is the court agreeing that the NFL has the right to punish conduct detrimental. The court continues:

The Policy in place during the underlying incident provided that the NFL may impose discipline when the player has committed a criminal offense, including domestic violence. Id. at 1. Consistent with the Player Contract, the Policy also stated that discipline may include fines, suspension, or banishment from the league. Id. at 2. The Policy did not set forth the presumed length of suspension for particular types of conduct, but noted that the disciplinary response “will be based on the nature of the incident, the actual or threatened risk to the participant and others, any prior or additional misconduct (whether or not criminal charges were filed), and other relevant factors.” Id.

The court equivocates:

It is undisputed that under the previous Policy, first-time domestic violence offenders faced a likely maximum suspension of two games. See id. Ex. 35, at 181:5-24, 368:5-13; Ex. 119, at 5 & n.4.

The following is the standard the court uses to cut through the semantic BS:

Although Henderson purported to rely on factual differences between Rice and this case, he did not explain how those differences would justify a different result. Nor did Henderson explain why the well-recognized bar against retroactivity did not apply to Peterson.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Judge+Doty's+ruling+overturning+Peterson's+suspension.pdf

Rice's ruling is much of the same:

While the parties strongly dispute what standards apply in reviewing determinations of League discipline under Article 46 of the NFL-NFLPA collective bargaining agreement, the legal standards are not outcome determinative in this case, which turns on the facts. 8 Nonetheless, I am persuaded that Article 46 does not contain a just cause provision, either explicit or implied. Where a collective bargaining agreement is silent on just cause, arbitrators often find that such a provision is implied. See In re J&J Maintenance Inc., 121 Lab. Arb. 847, 855 (2005). The CBA between the NFL and the NFLPA, however, is not silent on the matter; it explicitly includes just cause in the Club discipline provisions of Article 43. This inclusion demonstrates that the parties knew how to include such a provision when it was bargained for, bolstering the conclusion that it should not be read into Article 46. Even accepting that Article 46 does not contain a just cause provision and thus is not subject to the attendant standards of industrial due process, such as “double discipline” and “disparate treatment,” discipline under the Article must be fair and consistent. The NFL does not dispute this proposition. Tr. 164:25-165:6 (Goodell); 385:2-386:13 (Birch); see also Bounty, Final Decision, at 4 (Dec. 11, 2012); Exhibit 33 at NFL_RICE-000128. For me, this means that discipline determinations under Article 46 should be reviewed to determine whether the Commissioner abused his discretion, that is, whether his determination was arbitrary or capricious. Where the imposition of discipline is not fair or consistent, an abuse of discretion has occurred.

http://espn.go.com/pdf/2014/1128/141128_rice-summary.pdf

The semantic bait and switch will not work if Hardy presses the issue. The NFL has been arguing under those lines from the beginning.
 
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