SI's Tony Pauline Senior Bowl Day 1 Report....

[InmanRoshi]

You're wrong. You really can't name any 3-4 DE's that were more highly regarded coming out the last 5 years or so.

What an absolutely laughable and ridiculous statement.

Cowboy fans are used to 3-4 being nothing but gap pluggers because they've accustomed themselves to thinking that Igor is just as good as anyone else. It would get you laughed out of the room by other team fans who actually knows football. Ask Patriot fans what Ty Warren and Richard Seymore have meant to their defense. Ask 49er fans what Justin Smith means to their defense. Ask Steeler fans what Aaron Smith has meant to their defense. You're not just getting them for base packages, you're getting them as nickel pass rushers as well (for some reason fans seem to actually think NFL teams play in their base package 90% of the time).

If any position is overrated and not worth a Top 10 pick, it's cornerback. Offenses are too spread out and QBs in this era are too good at finding their 3rd or 4th reads. You take away one WR? Big whoop, they just go to their 3rd or 4th guy. Revis took away Reggie Wayne last year in the AFC Championship, and Manning still lit them up for 30 points and 370 yards throwing to Collie and Garcon and Clark. Rex Ryan learned his lesson this year, and just dropped a ton of guys back and sent 3 or 4 rushers, but to do that you got to get pressure with a 3 or 4 man front, like the way Shaun Ellis took over the game against Brady and the Patriots two weeks ago.

 

[The Realist]

What an absolutely laughable and ridiculous statement.

Name em.

 

[TheCount]

If any position is overrated and not worth a Top 10 pick, it's cornerback. Offenses are too spread out and QBs in this era are too good at finding their 3rd or 4th reads. You take away one WR? Big whoop, they just go to their 3rd or 4th guy. Revis took away Reggie Wayne last year in the AFC Championship, and Manning still lit them up for 30 points and 370 yards throwing to Collie and Garcon and Clark. Rex Ryan learned his lesson this year, and just dropped a ton of guys back and sent 3 or 4 rushers, but to do that you got to get pressure with a 3 or 4 man front, like the way Shaun Ellis took over the game against Brady and the Patriots two weeks ago.

I don't think the conversation is over which position is most overrated, but if it were, I'd say WR before CB.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Name em.

Any DE drafted ahead of the 4th round was more highly regarded that Canty. Any DE drafted ahead of the late 3rd was more highly regarded than Hatcher.

 

[The Realist]

Any DE drafted ahead of the 4th round was more highly regarded that Canty. Any DE drafted ahead of the late 3rd was more highly regarded than Hatcher.

So you had Hatcher graded higher than Canty.

Brilliant.

You know Canty was down there because of injuries unless your dumber than I thought.

Name those more highly regarded than Spears, Tyson, Dorsey, Luis and Igor.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Name those more highly regarded than Spears, Tyson, Dorsey, Luis and Igor.

Again Dorsey was never considered a good fit for a 3-4

Spears and Tyson where good prospects, but you could argue Ty Warren over both.

Luis was a solid player early in his career, hard to knock that.

 

[InmanRoshi]

You know Canty was down there because of injuries unless your dumber than I thought.

He was also down there because he was thoroughly mediocre in college, despite great measurables. At best he was a 2nd round player before the injury.

I also know that the first two draft first round draft picks Bill Belichick made when building a 3 time Superbowl Winner was drafting a defensive end with the 6th pick in the draft and drafting a defensive end with the 13th pick in the draft. Maybe you know more about building a 3 time Superbowl winner than Bill Belichick, but I doubt it.

And you do know that Haloti Ngata plays DE in the 3-4?? And you do know Dorsey was never drafted to be a 3-4 DE?

 

[YosemiteSam]

He was also down there because he was thoroughly mediocre in college, despite great measurables.

Actually, Canty had a 1st round grade prior to the injury.

 

[The Realist]

He was also down there because he was thoroughly mediocre in college, despite great measurables. At best he was a 2nd round player before the injury.

I also know that the first two draft first round draft picks Bill Belichick made when building a 3 time Superbowl Winner was drafting a defensive end with the 6th pick in the draft and drafting a defensive end with the 13th pick in the draft. Maybe you know more about building a 3 time Superbowl winner than Bill Belichick, but I doubt it.

And you do know that Haloti Ngata plays DE in the 3-4?? And you do know Dorsey was never drafted to be a 3-4 DE?

Yes, besides leading the conference in tackles by a DL Soph and Junior years, Canty was thoroughly mediocre.

 

[Gaede]

Actually, Canty had a 1st round grade prior to the injury.

Wasn't that prior to draft season though? Lots of guys go from 1st round grade during the season to anywhere in the draft after senior bowl, combine, pro day...Impossible to say what Canty's grade would've been without going through that process

 

[InmanRoshi]

Yes, besides leading the conference in tackles by a DL Soph and Junior years, Canty was thoroughly mediocre.

Considering he only had 4 TFLs his sophomore year, that must have been a pretty incredibly weak year in the ACC. Although, there must have been some other good players in the conference, considering the great Canty never finished higher than 2nd team All ACC in 4 years.

 

[Randy White]

Tyson Alualu went higher than everyone thought.. Everyone laughed at the Jags... Well the Jags are laughing now.

I'm still laughing at them. It's not because Alualu himself, he was my pet player in that draft, but because they spent a top 10 pick on him when everybody else was trading down at the time. Even if it's just a few spots and get an extra 4th or 5th round pick, it would have been alot better just on the salary slot alone.

The Jags have a reputation of not caring about player ranking and just drafting whomever they like at whatever cost and that's a stupid way to do business.

 

[Randy White]

What an absolutely laughable and ridiculous statement.

Cowboy fans are used to 3-4 being nothing but gap pluggers because they've accustomed themselves to thinking that Igor is just as good as anyone else. It would get you laughed out of the room by other team fans who actually knows football. Ask Patriot fans what Ty Warren and Richard Seymore have meant to their defense. Ask 49er fans what Justin Smith means to their defense. Ask Steeler fans what Aaron Smith has meant to their defense. You're not just getting them for base packages, you're getting them as nickel pass rushers as well (for some reason fans seem to actually think NFL teams play in their base package 90% of the time).

Aaron Smith hasn't played more than 6 games since 2008, hasn't had more than 5 sacks since 2004.

Justin Smith highest career sack total is 8 which was this past year, which is 1 more than Jay Ratliff's career high of 7, even though Rat is a NG. What that means is that both are very good players and rarities at their position.

Ty Warren didn't play this year, has 20 sacks in 7 years, 7 of them in 1 season. That's no better than the average 3-4 DE in the NFL.

Richard Seymore has 48 sacks in 10 years, with a couple of season of 8 sacks. He was switched to defensive tackle in Oakland when they changed to 4-3, which is what a 3-4 DE really is.

So what does all that mean ? It means that unless the player is the Warren Sapp, Jerome Brown, Cortez Kennedy, Ndamukong Suh, Randy White, Bob Lilly, or Leon Lett ( just to name a few ) of the 3-4 DEs, that player is not worth a top 10 pick.

The last dominant 3-4 DE that I can think of was Bruce Smith in Buffalo, but even they didn't run a true " 3-4 " defense because they' would use Cornelius Bennett as a defacto LDE at the line of scrimage, particularly in passing downs, and wanted to take advantage of Bruce's talents.

 

[InmanRoshi]

So what does all that mean ?

That maybe sacks are a great way to judge interior 3 tech DE's and interior OL since they don't get many (any) blindside shots at QBs? It doesn't mean they don't make impact plays. They force early throws, force interceptions, cause QBs to scramble from the pocket and allow the oustide rushers to clean up the trash. If you don't think Justin Smith made a load of impact plays this year, ask any 49er fans and prepare to be laughed and pointed out for being an idiot. Ditto any Ravens fan asking about Haloti Ngata.

Again, maybe you know more about building a 3 time Superbowl Champion than Belichick. Maybe your indepth 5 minutes of stat research trumps Belichick's 30 years of coaching the 3-4. I just happen to doubt it.

 

[Randy White]

That maybe sacks are a great way to judge interior 3 tech DE's and interior OL since they don't get many (any) blindside shots at QBs?

You mean " ARE NOT " ? and that's fine, but that's also the point.

3-4 DE's are truly 4-3 defensive tackles. To find a dominant 4-3 defensive tackles is not easy because not only is it up to the player, but the system itself. 4-3 DTs under Wanstead and Davis ( Butch ), Tampa Bay, Chicago Bears, are taught to attack upfield, worry about the running game on the way to the QB. Dominant DTs would thrive on that ( Lett, for example ). Under Fify, it was more " hold the line so the LBs can make the plays ", that's why the Cowboys were never the same again defensively once Butch left.

There is no 3-4 system that I'm aware where the 3-4 DE's assignment is to attack. Not Pittsburgh, not Green Bay, not Baltimore, not the Jets, not anybody's, including Wade's, who's, ironically, is the more aggressive of the bunch when it comes to linemen. It's just not part of their core defense.

Again, maybe you know more about building a 3 time Superbowl Champion than Belichick. Maybe your indepth 5 minutes of stat research trumps Belichick's 30 years of coaching the 3-4. I just happen to doubt it

Or maybe you should stop short of posting examples that aren't even remotely accurate. All it takes is a few minutes of research if you don't know, which is OBVIOUS that YOU don't.

Belichick's DE's produce just about as much as the any other 3-4 regular DE when it's all said and done. His strength has always been the defensive backfield and his abilities to force offenses to beat him with other than their best weapons.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Belichick's DE's produce just about as much as the any other 3-4 regular DE when it's all said and done. His strength has always been the defensive backfield and his abilities to force offenses to beat him with other than their best weapons.

Spending the 6th pick in the draft, 13th pick in the draft and 21st pick in the draft on defensive linemen tells me he thinks they're the most valuable position on the defense, and it's not even close.

Again, bring up how unimportant Ty Warren or Richard Seymore were to those Superbowl teams will get you pointed and laughed at by any knowledgable Patriot fan for being a football imbecile. Only a fan accustomed to the play of Jason Hatcher and Igor Olashansky would make such an utterly laughable and embarrassing claim.

 

[Randy White]

Spending the 6th pick in the draft, 13th pick in the draft and 21st pick in the draft on defensive linemen tells me he thinks they're the most valuable position on the defense, and it's not even close.

So what ? Scott Pioli spent the 3rd pick of the draft on a 3-4 DE who hasn't done squat.. Does that make him right ?

Again, bring up how unimportant Ty Warren or Richard Seymore were to those Superbowl teams will get you pointed and laughed at by any knowledgable Patriot fan for being a football imbecile. Only a fan accustomed to the play of Jason Hatcher and Igor Olashansky would make such an utterly laughable and embarrassing claim.

The only imbecile here is you for trying to post crap and try to pass them as facts that could be repudiated within a couple of mouse clicks. Nobody said Seymore or Warren weren't important. The point is, and anybody who's not a simpleton would get this ( you will need somebody to explain it to you ), is that 3-4 DE's are not THE key to the 3-4 defense and not really worth a high pick UNLESS that player is special and there haven't been ANY of those since Bruce Smith roamed the line of scrimage. . A team could get just about the same production from players drafted in lower slots OR rounds..

There's a difference between " important " and " key player ", and, once again, it's OBVIOUS that you don't know that either.

 

[chicago JK]

I would not pick a 3-4 DE with a top 5 pick (with the previous rookie contracts), but I think value is excellent if you pick between 8-15 if the right player is there.

Fact is there aren't many players currently better than Ngata in todays' NFL. No matter if he makes a lot of sacks or not. I think most personnel men wouldn't take many players over him once you get past the elite QB's.

I also found it interesting that Lebeau said Aaron Smith is one of the best football players he has ever coached period. I did not know Smith was that good when healthy.

I really think the Cowboys need to fix their defensive line much more than adding a CB. I would love to get Dareus and then get a free agent safety. Moves like that will have this defense remarkably better. Dallas needs guys who will win the physical battle closest to the ball on a consistent basis. The more you do this, the more times your stars get a chance to shine.

 

[junk]

Spending the 6th pick in the draft, 13th pick in the draft and 21st pick in the draft on defensive linemen tells me he thinks they're the most valuable position on the defense, and it's not even close.

Again, bring up how unimportant Ty Warren or Richard Seymore were to those Superbowl teams will get you pointed and laughed at by any knowledgable Patriot fan for being a football imbecile. Only a fan accustomed to the play of Jason Hatcher and Igor Olashansky would make such an utterly laughable and embarrassing claim.

He also managed a 14-2 record this year with Wilfork, Gerard Warren signed off the street and a mix of sixth and seventh rounders.

Keisel was a 7th rounder. Aaron Smith a 4th rounder.

Cory Redding was signed off the street for Baltimore.

Green Bay has a street free agent (Pickett) and Jenkins was an UDFA.

The Jets start an UDFA and Ellis.

The bulk of the starting 3-4 ends for playoff teams were found places other than the top of the first.

Those that have been highly rated of late usually tend to go near the end of the 1st (Castillo, Spears, Hood, Odrick, Balmer). Those that have been taken higher (Jackson, Harrell) have generally been disappointments.

If you have a shot at a game changer like Suh or Ngata, it makes sense to take them that high. I don't see a player like that in this draft.

I'd rather focus on more to difficult to fill positions high in the draft and find guys to two gap elsewhere.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

Holy ****. Put each other on ignore or Im rapping everybody out here