Slant Pattern Question

[CowboyoWales]

Fed up of adding this point to every thread, so here goes......

Has anyone got completion rates (over the past 3 years) on slant patterns involving CeeDee and other receivers.

The reason I ask is that:
1) CeeDee doesnt execute his routes with precision.
2) CeeDee's size and preference for open spaces indicates he's not going to contest balls...and may result in his pulling out of certain routes.
3) Have thought over the recent years that Dak has a tendency to throw behind a slant run.
4) I attributed this, in part to Dak's injuries.....but it's continued this year.
5) So question is do the stats infer it's a Dak/CeeDee issue (then change the receiver making the slant).
6) Does Dak have problem connecting with other WR's on timed slant patterns?

For me I dont care who's to blame, what I dont like is that we continue to do the same thing, with the same cast......sh@t or get off the pot with the play.

We cant view these passes as being indicative of poor communication, Dak being blamed or CeeDee being blamed..... they went 11/15 (73%) 150 yards ave of 13.6....its more indicative of players being asked (by KM) to run plays they arent suited to.

.....and rest.

 

[glimmerman]

They need to be throwing quick slants. And shallow crossing routes..

 

[Whirlwin]

I’m sick of throwing quickly to the outside receiver. We don’t have the blocking scheme it’s a wasted play.

 

[Whirlwin]

Goes quick slants. There’s no lane. It’s not as simple as just pitch in catch. If he’s throwing behind the receiver it’s because of the defender in his face. That’s why you’re watching other quarterbacks throw SideArm.

 

[CowboyoWales]

They need to be throwing quick slants. And shallow crossing routes..

So what's our success rate when we do?

 

[big dog cowboy]

I’m sick of throwing quickly to the outside receiver. We don’t have the blocking scheme it’s a wasted play.

 

[big dog cowboy]

They need to be throwing quick slants. And shallow crossing routes..

They need to force the defense to defend the entire field. That doesn't always happen and you can see it when the defense has 8 or 9 guys in the box. Sure enough we always run right up the middle.

 

[CowboyoWales]

I’m sick of throwing quickly to the outside receiver. We don’t have the blocking scheme it’s a wasted play.

But isn't that suiting the personnel? On a basic level it looks like KM dials this play as it highlights his play calling and going to CeeDee because IF he catches it we may have a highlight reel.
I don't mind the play, but using a safer (less explosive runner), may well increase the success level.
We are too much into hero ball, rather than run first move the chain team. Imho

 

[Flamma]

So what's our success rate when we do?

You can't just calculate slants. There's not always a DB waiting to catch the ball behind the WR. The QB simply has to determine whether or not the WR is going to get across the DBs face if the DB is there. Because he's basically throwing it right at the DB. Anticipating the WR will cut it off.

I'm assuming the play works most of the time. The problem is when the DB is closer and may jump the route. Every situation is different.

With the 2nd pick, you'll notice Ceedee threw up his hands. That indicates something went wrong. He probably couldn't get in front of the DB, and maybe Dak shouldn't have thrown it. Or Dak could be right and he could have, but didn't. You can't really calculate these situations.

 

[Cowboysheelsreds053]

We have not ran that since the Mike and Troy days.

 

[FTWayne]

Dak's thumb is hurt.

 

[CowboyoWales]

You can't just calculate slants. There's not always a DB waiting to catch the ball behind the WR. The QB simply has to determine whether or not the WR is going to get across the DBs face if the DB is there. Because he's basically throwing it right at the DB. Anticipating the WR will cut it off.

I'm assuming the play works most of the time. The problem is when the DB is closer and may jump the route. Every situation is different.

With the 2nd pick, you'll notice Ceedee threw up his hands. That indicates something went wrong. He probably couldn't get in front of the DB, and maybe Dak shouldn't have thrown it. Or Dak could be right and he could have, but didn't. You can't really calculate these situations.

It was some talking head mentioning that whilst these plays work in practice, defenses are aware of the play and more importantly how we don't cope with the DB alignments.... looked like we were baited into the play.

 

[RonnieT24]

1) The routes that were intercepted were not slants. They were deep in cuts. A slant is a much shorter route and a quicker throw.
2) When watching the slants that are "behind" the receiver people need to look at three things..
- the snap and how long it takes the QB to spin the ball to get the laces before they can throw it. Because shotgun snaps are like snowflakes sometimes THEY bollux up the timing.
- the throwing window.. meaning where is the receiver in relation to the 3 or 4 6'4 - 6'7" guys jumping in the QB's way. Sometimes the ball has to be thrown a little behind so as not to get batted back in the QB's face.
- the position of the safety or LB upfield from the receiver. If he looks close sometimes the QB will throw slightly behind to keep the receiver from being blown up.

It's easy to sit here and say "that ball was behind the receiver." But people who say that never acknowledge the ones that are right in stride for some reason. And ignore all the other factors that influence the ball placement. If Dak has any strength as a passer it's that he can put the ball between a squirrel's nuts from 30 yards away as long as his feet are set or if he is rolling out without a lot of duress. People can talk all they want about his lack of anticipation or timing or what have you.. but the whole accuracy thing needs to die. He puts the ball exactly where he wants it as long as there aren't people hanging all over him. And sometimes he does it even then..

The only pass he doesn't really throw well is the swing pass to the backs in the flats. For whatever reason every time he throws one of those I hear Forest Gump talkin... "ya never know what yer gonna git.." I think it's because that throw is typically an all arm throw where he doesn't set his feet or get his hips aligned. Generally that's because most of the time it's a last second bailout throw. He's just not good on those in general though.

 

[Oz-of-Cowboy-Country]

1) CeeDee doesnt execute his routes with precision.
2) CeeDee's size and preference for open spaces indicates he's not going to contest balls...and may result in his pulling out of certain routes.
3) Have thought over the recent years that Dak has a tendency to throw behind a slant run.

CeeDee doesn't execute his routes with precision. CeeDee does indeed run precise routes. But every receiver has to run his routes around at defensive player at times. So the route is interrupted by the defender at times.

CeeDee is going to pull out of certain routes. I tell everybody who says this to go watch his career highlights then get back to me. His highlights is full of him making the catch and taking the huge hit afterwards.

Dak has a tendency to throw behind slants. It's called a passing lane. Balls are often off target on short throws by all QB's. Because the ball is barely going over the DLinemens heads. So a QB has to wait for a passing lane in-between the linemen.

Dak hit both Lamb and Gallup on several slants in out last game. The problem is Moore calls the same plays every game and several times a game. Defenses know Moore's tendecies. So if you see a play all of a sudden not working it's because more has counted too many times. He can't be calling the skinny post to Lamb in the slot four timrs one game, then come back the next game and call that same play four times again. Moore sucks at play calling.

 

[lukemartin79]

Fed up of adding this point to every thread, so here goes......

Has anyone got completion rates (over the past 3 years) on slant patterns involving CeeDee and other receivers.

The reason I ask is that:
1) CeeDee doesnt execute his routes with precision.
2) CeeDee's size and preference for open spaces indicates he's not going to contest balls...and may result in his pulling out of certain routes.
3) Have thought over the recent years that Dak has a tendency to throw behind a slant run.
4) I attributed this, in part to Dak's injuries.....but it's continued this year.
5) So question is do the stats infer it's a Dak/CeeDee issue (then change the receiver making the slant).
6) Does Dak have problem connecting with other WR's on timed slant patterns?

For me I dont care who's to blame, what I dont like is that we continue to do the same thing, with the same cast......sh@t or get off the pot with the play.

We cant view these passes as being indicative of poor communication, Dak being blamed or CeeDee being blamed..... they went 11/15 (73%) 150 yards ave of 13.6....its more indicative of players being asked (by KM) to run plays they arent suited to.

.....and rest.

Very true- he is definitely not like Irvin, lol- man he was automatic on those. Just deadly, unstoppable- but he was a fighter. That was HIS ball. CD is not that guy, but Dak really only throws to CD and Schultz. Unless he has nothing and dumps off to a back for no gain or a loss. Thats why all the OBJ stuff made no sense, would Dak even use him, lol?

 

[CowboyoWales]

1) The routes that were intercepted were not slants. They were deep in cuts. A slant is a much shorter route and a quicker throw.
2) When watching the slants that are "behind" the receiver people need to look at three things..
- the snap and how long it takes the QB to spin the ball to get the laces before they can throw it. Because shotgun snaps are like snowflakes sometimes THEY bollux up the timing.
- the throwing window.. meaning where is the receiver in relation to the 3 or 4 6'4 - 6'7" guys jumping in the QB's way. Sometimes the ball has to be thrown a little behind so as not to get batted back in the QB's face.
- the position of the safety or LB upfield from the receiver. If he looks close sometimes the QB will throw slightly behind to keep the receiver from being blown up.

It's easy to sit here and say "that ball was behind the receiver." But people who say that never acknowledge the ones that are right in stride for some reason. And ignore all the other factors that influence the ball placement. If Dak has any strength as a passer it's that he can put the ball between a squirrel's nuts from 30 yards away as long as his feet are set or if he is rolling out without a lot of duress. People can talk all they want about his lack of anticipation or timing or what have you.. but the whole accuracy thing needs to die. He puts the ball exactly where he wants it as long as there aren't people hanging all over him. And sometimes he does it even then..

The only pass he doesn't really throw well is the swing pass to the backs in the flats. For whatever reason every time he throws one of those I hear Forest Gump talkin... "ya never know what yer gonna git.." I think it's because that throw is typically an all arm throw where he doesn't set his feet or get his hips aligned. Generally that's because most of the time it's a last second bailout throw. He's just not good on those in general though.

Interesting, thanks. Though as usual your responses do kind of feel as if it's an attack on Dak...which this isn't.

I see the incompletions being on slant, cuts and anything thrown when the receiver's going east-west. My query is if KM insists on this play then is CeeDee the right person running the route?

 

[maryquality]

1) The routes that were intercepted were not slants. They were deep in cuts. A slant is a much shorter route and a quicker throw.
2) When watching the slants that are "behind" the receiver people need to look at three things..
- the snap and how long it takes the QB to spin the ball to get the laces before they can throw it. Because shotgun snaps are like snowflakes sometimes THEY bollux up the timing.
- the throwing window.. meaning where is the receiver in relation to the 3 or 4 6'4 - 6'7" guys jumping in the QB's way. Sometimes the ball has to be thrown a little behind so as not to get batted back in the QB's face.
- the position of the safety or LB upfield from the receiver. If he looks close sometimes the QB will throw slightly behind to keep the receiver from being blown up.

It's easy to sit here and say "that ball was behind the receiver." But people who say that never acknowledge the ones that are right in stride for some reason. And ignore all the other factors that influence the ball placement. If Dak has any strength as a passer it's that he can put the ball between a squirrel's nuts from 30 yards away as long as his feet are set or if he is rolling out without a lot of duress. People can talk all they want about his lack of anticipation or timing or what have you.. but the whole accuracy thing needs to die. He puts the ball exactly where he wants it as long as there aren't people hanging all over him. And sometimes he does it even then..

The only pass he doesn't really throw well is the swing pass to the backs in the flats. For whatever reason every time he throws one of those I hear Forest Gump talkin... "ya never know what yer gonna git.." I think it's because that throw is typically an all arm throw where he doesn't set his feet or get his hips aligned. Generally that's because most of the time it's a last second bailout throw. He's just not good on those in general though.

Ronnie, I always enjoy your posts. I really learn a lot from them. Thanks for teaching me things I don't know because I am not a coach, but a fan of the team.

 

[Flamma]

It was some talking head mentioning that whilst these plays work in practice, defenses are aware of the play and more importantly how we don't cope with the DB alignments.... looked like we were baited into the play.

Good point. Like I said, I saw Brady throw that exact interception in a loss to the Saints last year. Who's fault if a safety cheats up?

I'm not sure they baited Dak into the play. The situation plays a role. Against the Bears for example, there was little time left in the half. A play like that was probably anticipated by the defense. We had to get chunk plays. I will say one thing. You didn't see those kinds of picks when Cooper was running the route.

 

[Creeper]

In my opinion we do not throw enough slants. The great thing about the slant play is it is a quick throw and there is no time for the pass rush to get in Dak's face.

I think we have 2 receivers who can run that route pretty well and fight for contested balls, Noah Brown and Michael Gallup. CeeDee I don't trust as much to run that pattern right.

 

[CowboyoWales]

In my opinion we do no throw enough slants. The great thing about the slant play is it is a quick throw and there is no time for the pass rush to get in Dak's face.

I think we have 2 receivers who can run that route pretty well and fight for contested balls, Noah Brown and Michael Gallup. CeeDee I don't trust as much to run that pattern right.

As @RonnieT24 pointed out I meant deep in-cut rather than shorter slant