Some perspective on Free

[NoLuv4Jerry]

You can bring up any stat you want to....but the eyes do NOT lie. He does not pass the eye test.

 

[waldoputty]

I don't know exactly. I tried to find some numbers, but all I've really found is commentary that said it was really, really bad. He was an eight-game starter that season. Pro Football Focus, for what it's worth, had him with an overall grade for 2015 that ranked him 61st at tackle. In pass protection, they ranked him 44th of 59 qualifying tackles that year. Hardy beat him bad when we played the Patriots to force a fumble by Brady. And I believe I read that he gave up 8 pressures and 2.5 sacks in the AFC Championship Game that year against Denver.

Pats would have saved $3.7M if they cut him after 2015.
What they did was not cut him but sign him to a multiyear contract with a $7M signing bonus and $14M guaranteed total.
What that tells me is that they saw something in him to give him a good contract.
And they were apparently right.
From Pats rag "Cannon is now considered a franchise right tackle, and arguably the best right tackle in the league."
Cannon is now considered a franchise right tackle, and arguably the best right tackle in the league.

So Cannon is completely irrelevant to Free's situation and what Belicheat would do with him.
Which is to cut him probably before 2015.

 

[gimmesix]

You can bring up any stat you want to....but the eyes do NOT lie. He does not pass the eye test.

Then maybe you need to have your eyes checked.

Try looking at this (granted it is not from the 2016 season): http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams...ys/2016/08/29/under-the-microscope-doug-free/

 

[Idgit]

If you want to do the bean counter thing, at least do it accurately.

To have this discussion without diving into the specifics does not make sense.
If you dive into the specifics, you will see that Dak's cap impact does not really start until 2020.
Furthermore, the year 1 of Dak's multi-year contract does not even have a large impact until 2021 or 2022 because year 1 of a multi-year contract is small.

I already shown that 3 FAs can be had and the cap would work out.
What we are doing now is throwing away Dez's remaining prime and wasting the best years of Zeke's prime.

Not sure where the argument is coming from, because I'm not really disputing anything you're saying. To the extent we have cap resources during the window between when Tony's deal is mostly off the books and Dak's deal is mostly affordable, we ought to be devoting them to the defense. I understand you believe three defensive VFA deals can be had, but that's not an argument for then switching gears and going offense.

And we're not wasting years for either Dez or Zeke. Both are part of a very effective offensive unit, and neither of them are suffering appreciable harm because Doug Free is the starter. In fact, I imagine both those guys are pretty appreciative of Doug Free. That's not to say Doug isn't the obvious weak link or that we shouldn't be looking to replace him or any other OL if the opportunity presents itself. It's just to say that starting RT is not high on the list of current personnel problems.

 

[gimmesix]

Pats would have saved $3.7M if they cut him after 2015.
What they did was not cut him but sign him to a multiyear contract with a $7M signing bonus and $14M guaranteed total.
What that tells me is that they saw something in him to give him a good contract.
And they were apparently right.
From Pats rag "Cannon is now considered a franchise right tackle, and arguably the best right tackle in the league."
Cannon is now considered a franchise right tackle, and arguably the best right tackle in the league.

So Cannon is completely irrelevant to Free's situation and what Belicheat would do with him.
Which is to cut him probably before 2015.

They signed him to a new contract in November, after he bounced back from his poor showing in 2015. He was on a 2-year, $9 million contract for 2015 and 2016 before signing that deal. If he was on the Cowboys, some fans here would have been crying about Dallas not cutting him after 2015 like they are doing now with Free. Belichick didn't cut him, which makes it comparable to Free's situation if you are asking what would Belichick do. He showed what he would do.

 

[Doc50]

I expect they don't think there's a FA RT out there who's an upgrade and a salary-cap neutral move. You may disagree, but I don't think that's how the team sees it. I look at Free as a position we're capable of upgrading, and we should look to do it basically the same way we flirted with bringing in a vet CB last season. Ie, not a priority, but great if they think they can make it happen or if looking at a few vets helps them solidify things. If nothing else, we can always upgrade Emmett Cleary's roster spot if the right guy is there.

I'm in favor of doing the beancounter thing. It's worked to build the competitive roster we've got now. Zeke's a rookie playing on a contender, so there's no wasting of his prime going on. Tough to make good cap moves overspending at premium positions in free agency. Much better to become adept at finding, developing, and signing your own guys who you know can play. I won't mind a strategic splurge or two once Romo's cap hit is absorbed and before we have to do a big deal for Prescott, but that's pretty much a one-off kind of deal there.

FA RT

 

[Idgit]

FA RT

That one slipped out, accidentally.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Not sure where the argument is coming from, because I'm not really disputing anything you're saying. To the extent we have cap resources during the window between when Tony's deal is mostly off the books and Dak's deal is mostly affordable, we ought to be devoting them to the defense. I understand you believe three defensive VFA deals can be had, but that's not an argument for then switching gears and going offense.

And we're not wasting years for either Dez or Zeke. Both are part of a very effective offensive unit, and neither of them are suffering appreciable harm because Doug Free is the starter. In fact, I imagine both those guys are pretty appreciative of Doug Free. That's not to say Doug isn't the obvious weak link or that we shouldn't be looking to replace him or any other OL if the opportunity presents itself. It's just to say that starting RT is not high on the list of current personnel problems.

Yeah Idgit... Be more accurate.

 

[waldoputty]

They signed him to a new contract in November, after he bounced back from his poor showing in 2015. He was on a 2-year, $9 million contract for 2015 and 2016 before signing that deal. If he was on the Cowboys, some fans here would have been crying about Dallas not cutting him after 2015 like they are doing now with Free. Belichick didn't cut him, which makes it comparable to Free's situation if you are asking what would Belichick do. He showed what he would do.

The point is that Belicheat realized that the guy worth a multiyear contract so not the right guy to cut.
Free, on the other hand, has no hidden talent.
We may well have been for cutting the other guy.
But Belicheat has the credibility that he knows what he is doing.
No one has the credibility to say Free has hidden talent... even Belicheat.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Then maybe you need to have your eyes checked.

Try looking at this (granted it is not from the 2016 season): http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams...ys/2016/08/29/under-the-microscope-doug-free/

That made me laugh-out-loud...

He's next after Risen Star get's fitted for bifocals.

 

[waldoputty]

FA RT

sorry doc
not original - someone else was first

 

[waldoputty]

Not sure where the argument is coming from, because I'm not really disputing anything you're saying. To the extent we have cap resources during the window between when Tony's deal is mostly off the books and Dak's deal is mostly affordable, we ought to be devoting them to the defense. I understand you believe three defensive VFA deals can be had, but that's not an argument for then switching gears and going offense.

And we're not wasting years for either Dez or Zeke. Both are part of a very effective offensive unit, and neither of them are suffering appreciable harm because Doug Free is the starter. In fact, I imagine both those guys are pretty appreciative of Doug Free. That's not to say Doug isn't the obvious weak link or that we shouldn't be looking to replace him or any other OL if the opportunity presents itself. It's just to say that starting RT is not high on the list of current personnel problems.

I dont remember what we are arguing about - just got off the phone.

The opportunity has indeed presented itself.
It is the last year of Free's contract so dead money is only $2.5M.
The team overall is suffering from Free's play and his $5M base salary can bring in any OT FA except perhaps Whtiworth.

We are wasting Dez and Zeke's primes because we are not we can do better.
He accounted for 75% of Dak's fumbles and 37.5% of the turnovers in 2016.
He was also the 3rd worst in terms of sacks and pressures.

 

[CWR]

Free's $5M base salary can easily bring in a superior RT with a year 1 salary cap impact that would actually be less than his base salary.

Carr's criticism was mostly based on salary.
Free on the other hand gave up the 3rd most sacks and pressures for all OTs.
That includes LTs that typically see the best OTs.

Here is the info on the worst rated OT who happens to be a FA
Even he sounds better than Free and is improving instead of declining:
After a rough start to the season, Pasztor turned things around and regularly graded as one of the Browns’ best players on offense. Considering guard might have been his projected strong suit, his work at right tackle for most of the year was admirable and his pass protection improved to match his run blocking.

Wow, your right thats concerning. I suppose it falls in line with his thoughts of retirement. Maybe Free is running out of gas. I do think he was a productive player for us but its tough to ignore those numbers. Still hard to believe Free is as bad as stats indicated last season. I couldnt imagine improving by losing him and signing a scrub. Maybe thats just my thought of yesteryears Free. I think the only other thing to factor in would be who the players went against and how often they received help. I know the Cowboys have thier own game day grades. Id like to see how he graded out per game.

 

[Nightman]

For the Freebird fans............do you think he gets signed if we cut him?

Either no one bites and we sign him as a backup to CGreen for 1m or we save 5m in cap space for the D

 

[Denim Chicken]

 

[waldoputty]

Wow, your right thats concerning. I suppose it falls in line with his thoughts of retirement. Maybe Free is running out of gas. I do think he was a productive player for us but its tough to ignore those numbers. Still hard to believe Free is as bad as stats indicated last season. I couldnt imagine improving by losing him and signing a scrub. Maybe thats just my thought of yesteryears Free. I think the only other thing to factor in would be who the players went against and how often they received help. I know the Cowboys have thier own game day grades. Id like to see how he graded out per game.

I dont think we have the game day grades.
All I know is I worry before every play that Free is going to screw up - but obviously that is subjective.
@xwalker mentioned that retirement rumors are often floated when a player is asked for a pay cut.
I actually think that has merits.
Although even if Free is at $1M instead of $5M - I would not want him except for a backup.
Though a pay cut would pay for a starting FA RT.

 

[gimmesix]

For the Freebird fans............do you think he gets signed if we cut him?

Either no one bites and we sign him as a backup to CGreen for 1m or we save 5m in cap space for the D

He'd get signed either because there are other teams that need a starting right tackle or he's better than the one they have (and yes, there are some he is better than). I don't think he'd get more than what he is scheduled to make, though, because of his age and how he played in 2016. Teams would have to have some concerns that it's a sign of decline ... which is really the only concern that we should have.

 

[Fontaine]

Holding, #68

 

[Satchel89]

Yes, I know there are several threads already on the subject, but I feel Free has been somewhat unfairly maligned on here.

Some think just anyone can replace Free, while others just want to point out his flaws in order to support that.

First, he does have flaws. He is far from perfect and he is replaceable even if that's not as easy to do as some believe.

Dallas ran 1,006 offensive plays last year and Free played in all 16 games. (I'm not sure if he missed any snaps.

Of those plays, Dallas ran the ball 499 for an average of 4.8 yards and had the league's leading rusher. This was accomplished with Free helping lead the way.

The Cowboys passed the ball 325 times, with Dak Prescott only throwing 4 interceptions (during the regular season) partially because of the time in the pocket Free helped create. Free did give up eight sacks, but that's 1 sack for every 40.6 pass plays.

Dallas finished the season fifth in total offense, second in rushing offense and fifth in scoring offense.

If Free was the scrub many believe him to be, there's no way Dallas could accomplish any of that with him in the lineup. He's a starting-caliber lineman who is upgradeable, but there's a reason that he's starting and why Dallas doesn't plan to change that this year unless he chooses to retire. There are reasons Dallas kept Free over Jermey Parnell.
I agree. I'm not saying he's great but he's solid and teams could find a lot worse then him at tackle.
I hate defending Free because I have said in other threads that I would prefer the team keep Leary, cut Free and let Collins and Green compete for Free's job. However, the reason I want that is because it helps the line get younger to the point where it could be together for several years and because I do believe Collins could possibly be a better tackle than Free. I believe Green, if can stay healthy, has shown that he might be as well. (And if all else fails, Collins has shown enough at guard that Dallas could flip Martin out to tackle if needed.)

The fact is there are 64 starting tackles in this league and Free, like it or not, has a place among him. He is good enough for that, and good enough to help this team have the offensive success that it has had. Some want to make it seem like the team is succeeding despite Doug Free, but he is a part of that success. And that's why the team isn't in a hurry to make a change.

Fans tend to see only the flaws, and yes, there are plenty of flaws, instead of looking at the majority of the plays where Free did his job and at times excelled at it.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

Collins cant replace Free. Collins is not a tackle. The subject has been battered for two years now.