Someone (DALE) please explain

[Nightshade]

I can not tell you how much I appriciate you pointing this out. I have tried to voice the same thing many times but it seems nobody is interested in listening. I hope you have much better success.

I think it's because Parcells so adamently stated that Glover's done it before successfully. Although that was when he was with the raiders, most people assume it's N.O.

just speculating.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think it's because Parcells so adamently stated that Glover's done it before successfully. Although that was when he was with the raiders, most people assume it's N.O.

just speculating.

Well, I don't recall the Raiders ever playing a 34 while Glover was there either but at least, it's a somewhat plausable explination.

I guess the thing I don't really get is this implication of the fact that he has done so well in a 34 scheme, in the past. I just don't see it as a given like some do. To tell the truth, it really worries me.

I hope my worries are unfounded but I guess we'll see.

 

[Crown Royal]

What is all this stuff about Glover played the 3-4 and was a monster? I heard the Parcells press conference, but all that was said was that he played it before.

Who cares? He played it in Oakland, but never made a scratch there. He played a bit of it in NO, but he didn't start making pro-bowls until they moved to a constant 4-3 and he played the 3. Glover has NEVER 'thrived' in the 3-4. He has played in it a bit. That is all.

As far as DE in the 3-4, glover is a true 3-tech DT. His job is mainly a pass rusher, to get up field quickly. In the 3-4, DLinemen have a different role. Their job is to hold their point and eat up blockers. IF they get up field, bonus, but it is a secondary role. They hold up blocks so that the linebackers can roam freely.

Glover is 6'2, 285-295 lbs. His bread and butter is his quickness and ability to get upfield. But he does so against guard singles and such. As a DE, he would go against much larger tackles and often see double teams from the T and G. Further, he doesn't have the mass to hold the point for LBers to roam freely.

Here is an example - Warren Sapp. Warren Sapp, 4 years ago, was the DT that ALL 3-techs were measured against. Glover is about on par with Sapp. Sapp went to Oakland, where he played the 5 tech DE position in the 3-4. He was not good at all.

 

[50cent]

3-4 DEs ideally are around 6-5 295. You need the weight to hold the point of attack and the reach to hold off the blockers.

At 6-2 282 Glover has neither the junk in his trunk or the reach to hold up at DE, or NT for extended periods, for that matter.

I thought that was for the position Spears is playing. At 279 Canty is perfect for the other DE, but not Glover at 282? I don't get it!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I thought that was for the position Spears is playing. At 279 Canty is perfect for the other DE, but not Glover at 282? I don't get it!

I am uncertain where the 279 came from but I will say this, Canty has already proven he can play a 34 DE while at Virginia. I realize that the NFL is a different story but the odds of Canty having success in the NFL at his natural position is much better, IMO, then Glove having never been all that succesful at the DE position in a 34. I believe that Canty goes about 285 or so and has actually played at 290. He is 6-7 with very long arms. This is why he's succesful as a 34 DE and Glover is not. It's not about weight here. It's the ability to play the gaps. In a 43, Glover does it with his first step, and usually against a Guard. In a 34, his quickness will be nolified by the double or the over all ability of the OT. He will not be able to enjoy the speed advantage because once the OT engages, he's not going to be able to use quickness. His shorter arms are also going to be a problem. A 34 DE is normally supposed to hold the line and play gap responsability. When your engaged with 320 pound OTs, you have to be able to use strength but also get off the block and pull down the runner. Glover would have difficulty doing this, because he has short arms. The OTs frame is going to provide enough cushion for the back to slide by.

As a NT, the responsability is to hold your position much more then play outside of the box. Your Gap responsability is not the same as a 34 DE. Typically, you have to fight off doubles and triple teams vertually every play. You must not be moved. This suites Glover much better then the DE position. His natural strength will help him there. He will be able to at least compete for a certain amount of plays. Not a lot mind you but for limited amounts of snaps, I think he could help there.

 

[Dough Boy]

I thought that was for the position Spears is playing. At 279 Canty is perfect for the other DE, but not Glover at 282? I don't get it!

50 -

It has less to due to with Height and Weight and more to do with body types and the distribution of weight.

For example, Marques Douglas played the 3-4 DE in Baltimore and has signed a FA contract with Nolan (DC for Ravens last year, new HC for 49ers) to play the same position this year. Douglas is 6-2, 280lbs. Visually, the difference between he and Glover is obvious. Douglas has a lot more 'junk in the trunk', really thick thighs and calves. He has a huge lower body.


Again, the difference between Canty and Ellis is distribution. I've seen Canty play. He is a big boy. Not just tall, but really thick and muscular. Ellis is no small pup, but the size disparity between he and Canty will be obvious once they stand next to one another.

FYI - I have my suspicion about Canty's actual weight. I think his playing weight at UVA was closer to 290.

 

[blindzebra]

I thought that was for the position Spears is playing. At 279 Canty is perfect for the other DE, but not Glover at 282? I don't get it!

Canty can play 3-4 DE very well IN COLLEGE at that weight. Anyone who thinks he can step in and excell in the NFL at 279 is nuts. Canty has the frame to add 15-20 pounds and I will bet that this time next year he will be in that 295 range.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Canty can play 3-4 DE very well IN COLLEGE at that weight. Anyone who thinks he can step in and excell in the NFL at 279 is nuts. Canty has the frame to add 15-20 pounds and I will bet that this time next year he will be in that 295 range.

I'm not certain of the 279 weight. I am fairly certain that he didn't play at 279, while playing 34 at Virginia. I suspect he probably got down to 279 in case he ended up being drafted by a 43 team. I agree with you. He will be playing a good 15 to 20 pounds heavier in no time.

 

[Crown Royal]

Canty can play 3-4 DE very well IN COLLEGE at that weight. Anyone who thinks he can step in and excell in the NFL at 279 is nuts. Canty has the frame to add 15-20 pounds and I will bet that this time next year he will be in that 295 range.

Even then, his body type is very different from Glover's. He is taller, with longer arms, and is probably more powerful as well. I agree that he will be adding weight.

Canty's body reminds me a lot of Richard Seymour's. I only hope he has the same talent.

 

[50cent]

50 -

It has less to due to with Height and Weight and more to do with body types and the distribution of weight.

For example, Marques Douglas played the 3-4 DE in Baltimore and has signed a FA contract with Nolan (DC for Ravens last year, new HC for 49ers) to play the same position this year. Douglas is 6-2, 280lbs. Visually, the difference between he and Glover is obvious. Douglas has a lot more 'junk in the trunk', really thick thighs and calves. He has a huge lower body.


Again, the difference between Canty and Ellis is distribution. I've seen Canty play. He is a big boy. Not just tall, but really thick and muscular. Ellis is no small pup, but the size disparity between he and Canty will be obvious once they stand next to one another.

FYI - I have my suspicion about Canty's actual weight. I think his playing weight at UVA was closer to 290.

I'm talking about Glover as opposed to Ellis comparing to Canty!

 

[Jarv]

Its funny, the only person (I have heard anyway) talking about Glover at DE...is Glover.

Maybe the guy just doesn't want to play NT in the 3-4 ?

 

[blindzebra]

I'm talking about Glover as opposed to Ellis comparing to Canty!

Glover is 6-2 and built like a fire hydrant. He has short arms and gets by because he is strong and quick. Which is fine for shooting gaps in our 4-3, not so fine at 3-4 NT or DE.

Ellis is 6-6 and wirey, he relies on quickness too and his long arms help keep blockers off him, but he's too light to hold up to constant double teams.

Canty is 6-7 and has a thicker frame, he can easily add more weight.

 

[Jarv]

Is there any reason to belive that Ellis at 6'6" can't add 20 lbs ?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Is there any reason to belive that Ellis at 6'6" can't add 20 lbs ?

I think he can, lord knows I did it once I got past 35 LOL!

The issue with Ellis would be adding the weight and keeping the quickness that allows him to be an effective pass rusher. I think he might have to give up one for the other. Not sure this would be the best answer in light of the fact that we are supposed to play both defenses.

 

[blindzebra]

Is there any reason to belive that Ellis at 6'6" can't add 20 lbs ?

Yes.

Some people have different frames and what makes Ellis a good player at 270 could make him a total hack at 290.

Take Shaq, he has the frame to carry 360 pounds, but does he play better at 360 or 320?

 

[Verdict]

Parcells sought out Ferguson to play the nose tackle position and coaxed Jerry Jones in to paying him a hefty $10 million dollar range signing bonus. If that doesn't say "I dont think Glover would hold up playing a 3-4 nose tackle" I'm not sure what does.

 

[Dough Boy]

I'm talking about Glover as opposed to Ellis comparing to Canty!

The first part of the thread ref Glover. I compared him to Marques Douglas. They are the same height and weight, but if you look at them side by side, Douglas is more stout than Glover. Douglas' lower body is larger than Glovers, giving Douglas more anchoring (sp) ability. Glover is certainly the quicker of the two, making him a pro bowl 3 technique tackle.

I think Glover would have a hard time having extended success in the 3-4 playing DE. I think he can play NT on passing downs in the 3-4.

At the end of the day, I think we will play enough 4-3 this year, that Glover will get plenty of snaps and sacks...