Specter: Patriots Cheated in '04 Against Steelers

SultanOfSix

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Bob Sacamano;1957635 said:
wouldn't to disprove your claim mean that there is something to disprove, all you've given me is some default bull-crap that you made up

unless you have a list of what makes something a default conspiracy theory, I'll be glad to read it

I don't have to disprove anything. YOU DON'T DESTROY EVIDENCE IF IT PROVES INNOCENCE OR IS INCONCLUSIVE. That leaves only one other possibility and that is guilt. I made the argument that when proof of guilt is destroyed, it implicates a cover up unless shown otherwise. And Goodell's reasons have been deemed insufficient by the Senator, other members of the government, and the public in general.

Only the most obstinate and irrational people argue against such a scenario.

they're asking him for tapes, and the Government hasn't even stepped into this yet

I'm sure the Senator is doing this all on his own time with his own private investigative firm. :rolleyes:
 

tyke1doe

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theogt;1957566 said:
Weren't you the turd that criticized me for this? By the way, you also have some subject-verb problems going on here.

Yes, that turd be me. I am guilty as charged. :D
 

Bob Sacamano

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SultanOfSix;1957645 said:
I don't have to disprove anything. YOU DON'T DESTROY EVIDENCE IF IT PROVES INNOCENCE OR IS INCONCLUSIVE. That leaves only one other possibility and that is guilt. I made the argument that when proof of guilt is destroyed, it implicates a cover up unless shown otherwise. And Goodell's reasons have been deemed insufficient by the Senator, other members of the government, and the public in general.

of course you don't have to disprove anything, but at least bring something to the table other than a list that you made up

talk about something not holding up in a court of law, your flimsy evidence will blow away in the wind

SultanOfSix said:
I'm sure the Senator is doing this all on his own time with his own private investigative firm. :rolleyes:

one Senator does not represent the whole United States Government, the dude can't take any meaningful action until the rest of his cohorts get involved
 

tyke1doe

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theogt;1957634 said:
Did you not read my post? He could end up screwed even if he is telling the truth. Senator Spector also commented on the inadequacy of the league's indemnity offer. The laegue simply doesnt want his tapes.

I read you post.

You say the league doesn't want his tapes.

Hhhmm?

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has said he's offered Walsh a deal whereby "he has to tell the truth and he has to return anything he took improperly" in return for indemnity.

If the league doesn't want his tapes, why would Goodell want him to turn them over?

Furthermore, why would the league protect him to lie? That doesn't sound strange to you? :confused:

"But his demand to be released from all responsibility even if his comments are not truthful is unprecedented and unreasonable. The NFL and the Patriots have assured Mr. Walsh's lawyer that there will be no adverse consequences for his client if Mr. Walsh truthfully shares what he knows. Why does he need any more protection than that?"


And again ...

But Eric Holder, a partner in Covington & Burling, the NFL's outside law firm, suggested the NFL might remain reluctant to meet Walsh's current terms.
"No responsible investigator would offer blanket immunity to a potential witness without a commitment that the witness will be truthful," Holder said. "Any witness who refuses to make that commitment doesn't deserve immunity."

It seems reasonable to conclude he has to tell the truth to receive immunity. It appears to me Walsh is trying to weasel out of the deal. If he has the tapes that prove the Patriots taped the Rams walk-through, shouldn't that be evidence to support his claim, particularly since the Patriots say they did not tape the walk through?

Seems pretty simple to me.
 

Bob Sacamano

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tyke1doe;1957658 said:
It seems reasonable to conclude he has to tell the truth to receive immunity.

most prosecutors strive for that

it seems the only one who's looking out for his *** is Walsh
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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theogt;1957530 said:
Ok, not sure if this is common knowledge by now, but I was listening to NFL Radio on the drive home and the announced that Walsh's attorney said that he has tapes and will reveal them if the league promises to indemnify him (which apparently they haven't done yet, despite what I thought Goodell said).

And this is exactly why i am pleased that Specter is getting onvolved. If goodell wants to use double speak and drag his feet then someone needs to step in.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bob Sacamano;1957661 said:
most prosecutors strive for that

it seems the only one who's looking out for his *** is Walsh

He has a nondisclosure agreement with the pats. without indemntiy then they could sue him for damages for releasing the information. i would cover my *** too if i was a golf pro and they could sue me for millions nand millions of dollars.
 

Bob Sacamano

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FuzzyLumpkins;1957669 said:
He has a nondisclosure agreement with the pats. without indemntiy then they could sue him for damages for releasing the information. i would cover my *** too if i was a golf pro and they could sue me for millions nand millions of dollars.

what's holding up the indemnity is Walsh not swearing that he will tell the whole truth
 

superpunk

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Here's a great post from a Seahawks fan. I'm not sure what this conversation has devolved into, but here it is.

Well, now that I look back, looks like it has to be pieced together, and then other spokespersons for the NFL creates a motif, really.

Goodell added more detail to the NFL’s actions against the club, noting that the league had obtained six tapes from the Patriots. Goodell said the six tapes included some games from the 2007 preseason and the rest were “primarily from late in the 2006 season.”

As part of the league's investigation, Goodell determined the filming of Jets coaches had no impact on the outcome of the game. Goodell also ruled that Robert Kraft and Patriots ownership were unaware of the filming.... Ha. He ruled that, did he? I guess he can rule whatever he damn well pleases.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello: told TMQ that assumption the tapes contained indications of Super Bowl cheating is "wrong," then wrote, "There is no such evidence regarding the Patriots' Super Bowl victories."

Official NFL Statement: "The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision," the statement said. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist.

And he aso said, if he found out they didn't give him everything, he'd "re-visit" the matter, and that he "absolutely" believed they'd turn over everything. That doesn't count, though, because both cases were before they turned over the materials. But nevertheless, the NFL said everything was turned over, and destroyed, and Goodell said there were 6 tapes.

And now he says they'd been taping since 2000, so either 1) the tapes actually did go back to 2000, and he previously lied, or

2) they didn't go back that far, but he found out they taped since 2000, pretty much by admission only, if we're to believe there was no evidence to support that (since the tapes supposedly only went back to late 2006). In this case, he either didn't pursue getting those tapes from him, or the Pats themselves destroyed them, or something, as if they no longer needed them and only needed the most recent 6 games (yeah right), or something, who knows, but how Goodell was to be satisfied with any sort of answer, without proof, that there were no tapes beyond those 6, while somehow knowing that taping had gone on since 2000, means he's actually, truly, incredibly stupid, which is a possibility, or he deliberately fabricated an impression (maybe it was an actual lie, maybe it wasn't, but it was misleading, and deliberate) that nothing in any superbowl season, or anything beyond the prior 6 games (4 preseason games and two 2006 games, regular or post season), was tainted by the cheating.

And, as TMQ and Specter, not to mention plenty of us, have mentioned, if the tapes he received from the Pats were the only copies, as he said, then his reasoning for destroying them is completely illegitimate, since them being locked up, in the league office or something, means there's zero danger of the Pats or anyone else getting a competitive edge off of them.

We knew the Packers had complained, the year before, but I didn't know exactly how they complained, or who to. This article says the Packers reported it to the league (that game was not in the last 2 of the 2006 season, or even in the last 6...it was week 11). The league only sent a warning, and then somehow Robert Kraft never knew about the whole thing until the Jets incident in week 1. And Goodell found in his invesitgation that Kraft was unaware of the whole thing, strange that he would go out of his way to mention that, officially, while being so quiet about everything else. And Kraft is the one who personally cast the vote, on behalf of the Patriots, the last time the league voted whether or not to allow one defensive player to have a communication headset like the QB, and the measure was defeated, with a small minority saying no, and the Patriots were among those who said no.

I guess all of that is peripheral really, at best. That last paragraph. But still, it seems pretty clear to me, he moved quickly, and showed where his interests lay: in looking like a sheriff, making it look like the problem had been solved, closing the case as quickly as possible, and keeping the public awareness of the taint of it all quarantined within this 6 week window, most of which was insignificant pre-season time, with no regard for how reaching the taint really, truly was, or what to do to clean it up. It's not an out and out conspiracy, but he made gargantuan misteps, in handling this thing, and I truly hope it comes back to bite him.
 

peplaw06

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tyke1doe;1957536 said:
Thank you for the example. And here is my reply.

I'd say that many parents have done that very thing, flushing drugs down the toilet when they discovered them in their children's bedrooms. And there are parents that have gone a step beyond that and have checked their drug-using children into rehab clinics.
They (the parent) did their own investigation, which uncovered the drugs. They, instead of keeping the drugs, disposed of them. Then they administered their own brand of punishment.

Why is this permissible or acceptable? Because parents operate under a different set of rules than the legal system. When the legal system gets involved, there are different procedures involved.

Similarly, the NFL and Goodell operate from a different set of rules and procedures than the legal system.

So trying to compare what Goodell did to the legal system isn't an apple-to-orange comparison.

But the parental example works perfectly even with the drug example. :)

Using this example, let's say that the cops are beating down the door as mom flushes sons drugs. Think there's a cover up?

And another thing, does mom have to have a search warrant to go into son's room and look through his dresser?
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bob Sacamano;1957670 said:
what's holding up the indemnity is Walsh not swearing that he will tell the whole truth

how can the NFL stipulate/enforce that?

youre sworn in beofre speaking before congress.
 

Bob Sacamano

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FuzzyLumpkins;1957719 said:
how can the NFL stipulate/enforce that?

youre sworn in beofre speaking before congress.

Goodell isn't taking Walsh to court, that's why, he wants Walsh's word that everything he tells him is factual
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bob Sacamano;1957722 said:
Goodell isn't taking Walsh to court, that's why, he wants Walsh's word that everything he tells him is factual

That was my point. There is no point to him asking that.

Bob i want youre word to always tell the truth. If you dont ill be really really really really really really really really really upset.
 

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FuzzyLumpkins;1957725 said:
That was my point. There is no point to him asking that.

Bob i want youre word to always tell the truth. If you dont ill be really really really really really really really really really upset.

really? something this important, you don't want to make sure that the guy is being totally honest w/ you? it shouldn't be that hard to say, "yes, everything that I'm reporting to you is 100% accurate, and truthful, to the best of my knowledge"

what's so hard about that?
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bob Sacamano;1957726 said:
really? something this important, you don't want to make sure that the guy is being totally honest w/ you? it shouldn't be that hard to say, "yes, everything that I'm reporting to you is 100% accurate, and truthful, to the best of my knowledge"

what's so hard about that?

But they cant. they dont have the authority to ask that.

thats my point. and i doubt they just wnat him to say that. im sure they want him to sign something.

i really just want spectre to subpeona him and give him immunity. that way hes got perjury over his head and this crap of goodell goes away. since when has this been askied for out of court in this manner? it hasnt and its crap.
 

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FuzzyLumpkins;1957733 said:
But they cant. they dont have the authority to ask that.

but he has the right to withhold indemnity w/o the disclaimer

FuzzyLumpkins said:
i really just want spectre to subpeona him and give him immunity. that way hes got perjury over his head and this crap of goodell goes away. since when has this been askied for out of court in this manner? it hasnt and its crap.

what are you asking me here?

what Goodell is asking Walsh is pretty simple and painless, but I agree, I want this to end quickly too, there's just too much dragging of feet going on, from both parties

Goodell give up the evidence, Walsh show the evidence, bing, bam, bodda, boo
 

peplaw06

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tyke1doe;1957518 said:
But sole authority to investigate does not mean he has the power of search and seizure. It just means he is the only person who can conduct an investigation. That he has and that he did.
So who has to give him permission to do a search and seizure? Is that not part of an investigation? If he doesn't have the authority to do that, how can he have "sole authority?"

Because you can't help yourself. You're very frustrated so you lash out like a child. And yet you can't pull yourself away from the conversation even though you have said you would do so on numerous occasions.
I'm only frustrated because it seems like you're not reading English... it's like there's something being lost in translation.

All you can do is spin words to create the facade that they comport with your argument, when they clearly don't. People bring up inconsistencies in your arguments, and you turn em around and say, "that's my point."

Be that as it may, yes, having "sole authority" does not mean that Goodell has the power to go into the Pats office and seize tapes. That's why he asked the Pats to turn over the tapes. That's not hard to understand.
Yet another instance of you not being able to pick up on simple concepts. Sole authority is sole authority. You've yet to show any indication that Goodell would have to have anything even remotely resembling a search warrant to go in there and seize the tapes. You're the one trying to compare law enforcement requirements to the NFL's requirements. And it's apparently just because you say so, because I've yet to see anything that backs up what you've said.

Does your boss have to have a search warrant to go through your emails or see what you've been looking at on your computer at work? I'll save you the suspense, he doesn't.

So what other option did he have other than to ask the Pats to turn over the tapes? Are you saying he could go into their office and seize the tapes?
Yes that's what I'm saying. Do you have something that says otherwise?
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bob Sacamano;1957734 said:
but he has the right to withhold indemnity w/o the disclaimer



what are you asking me here?

what Goodell is asking Walsh is pretty simple and painless, but I agree, I want this to end quickly too, there's just too much dragging of feet going on, from both parties

no actually its not. under what is going on here the patriots could simply call him a liar and then sue him with little to no evidence.

basically what hes saying is that he will come forward tell the truth in good faith and then they can do with it whatever they like. as i stated before im glad that spectre is getting involved because this crap from goodell is just garbage. the nfl should wnat him to come forward right? they certainly arent acting like it.

Walsh's attorney says NFL indemnification offer falls short

By Mike Fish
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: February 15, 2008, 8:23 PM ET

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The attorney for Matt Walsh said the former New England Patriots video assistant is agreeable to providing information about the team's illegal taping practices, but as of Friday said the NFL has fallen short of his request for complete indemnification, which would protect Walsh from being sued.

Walsh, who was employed by the Patriots from 1996 to 2003, has suggested to ESPN.com that he has information that could be potentially damaging to the league and the Patriots. He has, to date, refused to provide specifics or turn over potential evidence without protection against potential lawsuits.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has said that the league will "absolutely'' offer indemnification in turn for Walsh's cooperation. But Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, said the offer presented Monday by league counsel Jeffrey Pash does not meet the standards for indemnification agreements.

A standard indemnification agreement, Walsh's attorney said, protects against allegations of untruthfulness as long as there is not "bad faith.''

"The NFL's proposal is not full indemnification,'' Levy told ESPN.com. "It is highly conditional and still leaves Mr. Walsh vulnerable. I have asked the NFL to provide Mr. Walsh with the necessary legal protections so that he can come forward with the truth without fear of retaliation or litigation. To best serve the interest of the public and everyone involved, I am hopeful the NFL will do so promptly.''

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league believes it has offered to provide Walsh adequate coverage, if he is truthful.

"We offered immunity from litigation under two conditions, that he tell the truth and he return anything he took from the Patriots,'' Aiello said.

Sen. Arlen Specter, Republican leader on the Senate Judiciary Committee, has been critical of the league's handling of Spygate and continues to investigate. Specter said he has the support of Judiciary Committee chair Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., though the importance of what his investigation uncovers will determine if there's a need for committee hearings.

Specter has been in communication with the attorney for Walsh, and the lawmaker said he believes the former Patriots employee is a key to his investigation.

Walsh's attorney said his trust of the NFL is an issue after learning that a league security officer and former FBI agent, Dick Farley, had interviewed two of Walsh's former co-workers at a Cape Cod golf course in Massachusetts. Walsh, 31, has been an assistant golf pro at several courses in New England and Arizona since leaving the Patriots. He currently works at a course on Maui.

"Sending a former FBI agent to investigate his professional and personal life has not left Mr. Walsh feeling confident that the National Football League simply wants to encourage him to come forward with whatever information he has,'' Levy said.

Aiello, the NFL spokesman, acknowledged that the league has looked at public records to verify Walsh's employment history in "an effort to learn about him -- however that is done.''

Michael Levy, head of the white-collar investigations and enforcement group at the Washington firm of McKee Nelson, said gaining Walsh's cooperation is dependent upon the league meeting his terms for complete indemnification, which he provided Thursday to the NFL's outside counsel, Gregg Levy.

Under the NFL's indemnification offer, Walsh's attorney said his client could still be sued if, for instance, the Patriots contested the accuracy of whatever information he comes forward with. That could prove an enormous cost battling an NFL franchise in court.

"It is very easy to allege someone has been untruthful even if it can't be proven,'' Michael Levy said. "The NFL's proposal would leave Mr. Walsh completely unprotected against such an unproven allegation, because he would have to defend against it himself. And the NFL wants Mr. Walsh to give up the very materials he might need to prove his truthfulness.''

Someone could argue, according to both Levy and Specter, that Goodell was untruthful when he misconstrued facts in a Jan. 31, 2008, letter to Specter. While assuring Specter that the league's investigation uncovered no videotaping chicanery by the Patriots leading up to their 2005 Super Bowl victory against the Philadelphia Eagles, Goodell wrote, "The two teams had only played one other game against each other in the current decade, a preseason game in the summer of 2003.''

In fact, the Super Bowl showdown was the fifth game between the teams in the preceding 2½ years.

"Clearly, commissioner Goodell should not seek to hold Mr. Walsh to a higher standard than the standard to which he would hold himself,'' Levy said. The attorney was careful to note that although Goodell's letter was inaccurate, he doesn't believe he acted in bad faith.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3248267&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines
 

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FuzzyLumpkins;1957739 said:
no actually its not. under what is going on here the patriots could simply call him a liar and then sue him with little to no evidence.

basically what hes saying is that he will come forward tell the truth in good faith and then they can do with it whatever they like. as i stated before im glad that spectre is getting involved because this crap from goodell is just garbage. the nfl should wnat him to come forward right? they certainly arent acting like it.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3248267&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

in that article you posted, Walsh will receive immunity from judicial authority if he hands over the tapes that he took from the Pats, and is truthful

simple

Walsh just looks like a scared *****, honestly, "the NFL is sending private investigators, oh noezzz! I ascared"
 
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