State of coaching and minorities in the NFL

[Reality]

I started to post this as a reply to the other thread but decided to start a new topic instead.

A lot of good arguments back and forth on this topic, but I'll still share my thoughts ...

First, let me start off by saying that I do believe there are racial factors (not racism) in the hiring of minority (not just black) head coaches. However, not all of the issues are as simple as they were in the past when black players and other minorities had trouble even playing on teams.

Right now, teams know that when they hire a minority coach, they are not just hiring a coach, they are setting themselves up for a major PR disaster whenever the day comes they have to fire that coach. Let's face it, the days of coaching the same team for your entire career are gone so most of the time, coaches will be fired or forced into resigning rather than retiring or leaving on their own terms. So, when the day comes that they have to fire the minority coach, they know full well that activist and minority support groups will start a full campaign on why that coach was treated unfairly.

I'm a big Ty Willingham fan and I was glad to see Notre Dame hire him several years ago. After three years, he was fired because the team wasn't improving after Ty's first year. What happened? Several minority organizations went to media claiming racism was a factor. The problem is that these minority organizations and prominent speakers like Jesse Jackson think they are helping improve racial equality for minorities but in some ways they are hurting more than helping.

In my opinion, the most overlooked factor in hiring minority coaches is the negative press and publicity that will happen when the day comes that coach is fired. Since people tend to only remember and focus on the last thing that happened, no one will remember and talk about Notre Dame for hiring a black coach, but instead they will be the school who fired one. It just so happens that Charlie Weiss came in and had such great success right away that everyone got over the firing of Willingham. However, if Weiss had come in and had a .500 team, there would still be rumblings over the firing of Willingham.

I was really pulling for the Bengals this year as my "AFC" team. Why? Because the Bengals sucked for so long and they hired Marvin Lewis (the real reason the Ravens went to the Super Bowl and won with Dilfer as the quarterback) when no one else would. Lewis went through interview after interview just trying to get a chance at being a head coach when he had more than earned it based on accomplishments. While I do believe racism claims are used too often as a crutch or excuse for people not getting what they want, there is no doubt in my mind that Marvin Lewis would have been hired long before the Bengals job had he been white.

As a fan, I want to see fresh blood in the head coach positions in the league. I don't want to see the Vermeil's, Turner's, Fassel's, etc. recycled over and over. Teams and fans focus so much on drafting a quarterback of the future and avoiding veteran retreads that are nothing more than temporary stop-gap solutions. What I don't understand is why don't they do the same thing with their head coaches?

I think teams and fans both only think on 2-4 year cycles of coaching when in reality (no pun intended), they should be thinking about 10-20 year cycles. Granted, finding that long-term coach is a hard task in the win-now mentality of this league, but look at the two head coaches of the AFC championship teams, Cowher and Shanahan, who have been there for so many years. In the NFC you have Mike Holmgren with 7 years at Seattle and Carolina's John Fox likely to spend many more years coaching the Panthers.

In Dallas, we have a hall of fame coach in Parcells who is likely to coach 1-2 more years at best before retiring again. Then what happens? That's right, another coaching change.

Personally, I want to see more teams hiring first-time head coaches because I want to see some new schemes and styles brought into the league rather than the re-treaded and outdated types that we see over and over today. That means looking outside the current head coach cache and taking chances on new coaches which also includes minorities. Marvin Lewis is not a great coach because he's black .. he's a great coach because he knows how to win.

To quote Mickey Spagnola, "If <insert-retread-coach-here> was so good, why did <insert-several-other-teams-here> fire him?"

Just one person's thoughts ...

-Reality

 

[Billy Bullocks]

I really have to agree with you on this one. One of the biggest factors, I think, is the loose use of the term "racism". The term gets thrown around way too often, and it scares people to act rationally. If you fire a minority coach, the organization is labeled racist, even if that coach did nothing to merit holding his job.

Like what I said in the other thread, Marvin Lewis has proven in every way shape and form that he is a good Head Coach. Anyone who knows football knows that that pompous bastid Billick was not the reason that the Ravens won, but it was all in the hands of Lewis and his defense. Marvin Lewis is a good coach. Lovie Smith, damn good coach. Period.

The fact that the label of racist is so loosely thrown around is a major reason I think that race relations are not as far along as they should be. I respect various leaders of minority communities very much, but sometimes, by tagging something as racist or prejudice it leads to a feeling of being forced into doing something, so as not to offend anyone, or like Reality said, fear of something going wrong, and then getting tagged with the racist label.

BTW, to all of you who make the argument of why there are no Asian, Latino, whatever, coaches...how many latino or asian players really play in the league...but I do agree with the point, race should play no role in the hiring of a coach.

One can look at the QB position and race and see that in the last 5-10 years, there really has been an influx of African American QB's into the pro and college ranks. I don't think that black QB's suddenly learned how to play, it's just that they finally were given an equal chance to play the position, and are just as good as any white QB.

I think with the results that coaches like Lovie Smith, Marvin Lewis, Tony Dungy, etc. are producing, it wont be long until more minority coaches are hired. It's a slow process, and I'm not sure the NFL really had to have the rule in place for this to happen, times will change, just slowly.

BTW, to anyone who for some reason believes that African American coaches are not as good as white coaches, do note that 25% of the head coaches in this years playoffs were African American...

I think in due time, even the next 10 years, it will become less and less of an issue. Strides are being taken all over...Silvester Croom at Missippi State...you can't change the world in one day

 

[marsbennett]

OK, this response is in no way directed at you Reality.


Great...now organizations have one legit reason to not hire a black person.....they'll be racist if they fire him.......idiocy! This old hat excuse for pushing quota hiring is what is racist. The playing field is as level today as it has ever been and as fair as the process will ever get. I do not believe that there is one owner who would not hire someone because of the color of their skin if that person improves the teams' chances of winning.

The day that management has to be afraid of hiring a minority because they are afraid to fire one.....the so called civil rights push to hire more minorities will have failed under its own stupidity.

"He's black so he won't get hired" is the biggest crock and insult to blacks on MLK day that I could imagine. Any punk running of at the mouth about how NFL coaches are discriminated against must not have been alive for more than 20 years. The changes since the 1960's are nothing short of amazing. My own 5 year old woke me up yesterday and said, 'guess who's birthday it is.' After I guessed correctly we talked about why we celebrate MLK. My son said, 'because he was a King?' No buddy.....and I explained how black people and white people couldn't go to school together, or use the same bathroom, or eat together, etc......My son, with his eyes wide open and laughing said, 'You're kidding me?' I told him, no...it's true, when I was a boy we had to be separate and that is the way it was because that is what the law said.....people had to be separted because of their skin color and blacks were not allowed to do things that white people could do just because of their skin color...."Can you believe that' I asked? My son laughed again and said.........'that's the stupidiest thing I ever heard.' Don't tell me things haven't changed and don't tell black Americans they cannot get a job because of the color of their skin, they may believe you and get left behind when they should be out achieving for the human race.

Frankly, I've met more black people these days with bias against whites than visa versa, however, most of the black people that I know that are like that are in no position to use their racist beliefs to hold someone back.....except for one high school teacher whom my niece must learn to cope. The greatest proof of the idiocy of the cry wolf racism crowd is the behavior this black teacher. At the beginning of black history month the woman starts high fiving the black kids, speaking in black english (ie improper english), and saying 'Yeah, black people! We've done this and this and this.... -high fiving black students- while a bunch of white, hispanic, and asian kids look at each other as though they had done something wrong. Even some of my nieces' black schoolmates were shocked. Imagine a white teacher high fiving white students and proclaiming the greatness that is whitey while all the black students sat there stunned.....the ***** wasn't even warned or written up for her actions BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION WAS SCARED the NAACP would get involved and that is a fact!(that's right...they didn't want to start up protests b/c this woman's husband was a major player in the local NAACP chapter)


Take this cry wolf crap and stuff it!

 

[jja050575]

can we please get off this subject? it is ridiculous that we have to keep talking about it!!

 

[marsbennett]

Talk to DA MAN.

 

[AbeBeta]

I agree, mostly with Reality, but one overlooked point here is that this isn't about the great coaches. A great coach will get hired regardless -- only if there was horrible and completely overt racism would that not happen. However, it is the more subtle and less easily detected racism that is the problem here -- the racism that swings the choice to a white coach when all else is equal - the racism that gives white coaches with no experience even as a coordinator (e.g., Tice) a shot a head job. We can't just waive a magic wand and make that go away. The Rooney rule requires that teams interview a minority coach -- that isn't a perfect solution -- but it is one way to recognize that inequality does exist and that something needs to be done to help even things out. I'll be the first to admit that such strategies do not fully recognize the dream of equality -- but they are a necessary step in moving toward it.

 

[TonyS]

My 2 cents:

Its a numbers game, not a race game for HCs in the league. If an owner thinks that a black/red/yellow HC will bring him to the SB, he'll hire him.

The fact is that there have been more white coaches at all levels in the NFL and the ones with experience get the jobs. Black assistants that have come up, such as Dungy, Edwards, Lewis, Green and Crennel will open the NFL to HCs more than any "interview" requirements.

Guys like Carthon are getting looks right now. But it takes time and putting rules in place to ensure that black coaches get "interviews" isn't going to help much. As long as we look at is as a race issue, it will be doing black and white and red head coaches a disservice.

 

[burmafrd]

The Rooney rule is moronic. You cannot force people to hire. There is almost certainly no difference between those who would have been interviewed before or after that dumb rule- BUT it just might make some of the owners more stubborn about hiring. Resenting being told who they can hire/interview.Also- this is supposed to be a free country- you can hire and fire who you want since it is YOUR BUSINESS. The more this stupidity is pushed the less honest the whole process is.Change that comes slowly usually is also the best type of change- forced "progress" often causes more problems then it solves.AFFIRMATIVE ACTION now taints every minority- many feel that some get hired strictly because of their skin color. THAT is never a good thing.And those idiots that always cry racism- THEY are the real racists.In the college ranks- its openly talked about that after the whole Willingham fiasco at ND, many universities would be VERY reluctant to hire a black coach- because of the grief they will get when they have to let him go- as most coaches are sooner or later. WIllingham was strictly a mediocre coach and recruiter who should NEVER have been hired by ND; but after the O'leary fiasco - they paniced and tried to make a big move that looked good in the media but failed on the field. That probably set back black head coaches in the college ranks YEARS.

 

[Doomsday101]

My 2 cents:

Its a numbers game, not a race game for HCs in the league. If an owner thinks that a black/red/yellow HC will bring him to the SB, he'll hire him.

The fact is that there have been more white coaches at all levels in the NFL and the ones with experience get the jobs. Black assistants that have come up, such as Dungy, Edwards, Lewis, Green and Crennel will open the NFL to HCs more than any "interview" requirements.

Guys like Carthon are getting looks right now. But it takes time and putting rules in place to ensure that black coaches get "interviews" isn't going to help much. As long as we look at is as a race issue, it will be doing black and white and red head coaches a disservice.

Good post.

 

[Ashwynn]

OK, this response is in no way directed at you Reality.


Great...now organizations have one legit reason to not hire a black person.....they'll be racist if they fire him.......idiocy! This old hat excuse for pushing quota hiring is what is racist. The playing field is as level today as it has ever been and as fair as the process will ever get. I do not believe that there is one owner who would not hire someone because of the color of their skin if that person improves the teams' chances of winning.

The day that management has to be afraid of hiring a minority because they are afraid to fire one.....the so called civil rights push to hire more minorities will have failed under its own stupidity.

"He's black so he won't get hired" is the biggest crock and insult to blacks on MLK day that I could imagine. Any punk running of at the mouth about how NFL coaches are discriminated against must not have been alive for more than 20 years. The changes since the 1960's are nothing short of amazing. My own 5 year old woke me up yesterday and said, 'guess who's birthday it is.' After I guessed correctly we talked about why we celebrate MLK. My son said, 'because he was a King?' No buddy.....and I explained how black people and white people couldn't go to school together, or use the same bathroom, or eat together, etc......My son, with his eyes wide open and laughing said, 'You're kidding me?' I told him, no...it's true, when I was a boy we had to be separate and that is the way it was because that is what the law said.....people had to be separted because of their skin color and blacks were not allowed to do things that white people could do just because of their skin color...."Can you believe that' I asked? My son laughed again and said.........'that's the stupidiest thing I ever heard.' Don't tell me things haven't changed and don't tell black Americans they cannot get a job because of the color of their skin, they may believe you and get left behind when they should be out achieving for the human race.

Frankly, I've met more black people these days with bias against whites than visa versa, however, most of the black people that I know that are like that are in no position to use their racist beliefs to hold someone back.....except for one high school teacher whom my niece must learn to cope. The greatest proof of the idiocy of the cry wolf racism crowd is the behavior this black teacher. At the beginning of black history month the woman starts high fiving the black kids, speaking in black english (ie improper english), and saying 'Yeah, black people! We've done this and this and this.... -high fiving black students- while a bunch of white, hispanic, and asian kids look at each other as though they had done something wrong. Even some of my nieces' black schoolmates were shocked. Imagine a white teacher high fiving white students and proclaiming the greatness that is whitey while all the black students sat there stunned.....the ***** wasn't even warned or written up for her actions BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION WAS SCARED the NAACP would get involved and that is a fact!(that's right...they didn't want to start up protests b/c this woman's husband was a major player in the local NAACP chapter)


Take this cry wolf crap and stuff it!

Not a racist remark here, just a note on what actually happened at my employer. We have several pple working there that are black, most of them are really cool pple and I have no problem. But there is one lady that is trying to get fired we think. She does the barest amount of work that can be done and qualify as her doing her job. very often we have to wait on a report or profile cause shes just too busy, yet the other operators are doing almost twice the amount of work she does. Shes causesd ruffles in the office several times and when confronted, she shuts up, goes to her purse, pulls out a recorder and then says ok, you can talk to me now. She makes the management so uptight and stressed out. She baits the management team. Shes looking for someone to say the wrong thing to her so she can sue the company and not have to work a day in her life. She really is just an utterly unhappy person that actually carries a chip on her shoulder and uses it in every way from cutting into a line at lunch to leaving 3 hours early. She did not schedule MLK day off as a holiday, yet took it off and called in yesterday saying her religous conviction were being violated forcing her to work on a national holiday. WHAT???? we'll find out about that today. ALl the other pple that worj there came to work, white, black, asian and 1 russian.

So again, it goes back to the person looking at the situation. You can change the way America works by changing the way you think. Quit using labels. Think upon all as Americans and not just a white man or a black man. It all starts with you. I have changed the ways I think and it works. But it does require everyperson to change. Quit thinking about themselves first and the country or employer or group or whatever first.

 

[kartr]

My 2 cents:

Its a numbers game, not a race game for HCs in the league. If an owner thinks that a black/red/yellow HC will bring him to the SB, he'll hire him.

The fact is that there have been more white coaches at all levels in the NFL and the ones with experience get the jobs. Black assistants that have come up, such as Dungy, Edwards, Lewis, Green and Crennel will open the NFL to HCs more than any "interview" requirements.

Guys like Carthon are getting looks right now. But it takes time and putting rules in place to ensure that black coaches get "interviews" isn't going to help much. As long as we look at is as a race issue, it will be doing black and white and red head coaches a disservice.

I think race has a more prominent place in hiring than people want to believe because Tim Lewis and Jerry Gray have more experience as defensive coordinators than Eric Mangini and their teams have played pretty good defense over the years. Look how long Crennel had to wait as compared to Mangini. Jack Del Rio got a head coaching gig before Marvin Lewis did and Lewis was Del Rio's boss at Baltimore.

All of the African-American coaches ever hired as head coaches have gotten their teams to the playoffs and have won at least one playoff game. There are no black Jim Hasletts, or Norv Turners or Wannstedts or Ray Handleys or Richie Kotites, yet with 8 openings they are going to hire all white coaches, some who have failed repeatedly and others who don't have as much as experience as the leading 'black candidates'. That's a very sad picture that Marvin Lewis and Lovie Smiths success has not prompted at least one 'minority hiring'.

 

[kartr]

Not a racist remark here, just a note on what actually happened at my employer. We have several pple working there that are black, most of them are really cool pple and I have no problem. But there is one lady that is trying to get fired we think. She does the barest amount of work that can be done and qualify as her doing her job. very often we have to wait on a report or profile cause shes just too busy, yet the other operators are doing almost twice the amount of work she does. Shes causesd ruffles in the office several times and when confronted, she shuts up, goes to her purse, pulls out a recorder and then says ok, you can talk to me now. She makes the management so uptight and stressed out. She baits the management team. Shes looking for someone to say the wrong thing to her so she can sue the company and not have to work a day in her life. She really is just an utterly unhappy person that actually carries a chip on her shoulder and uses it in every way from cutting into a line at lunch to leaving 3 hours early. She did not schedule MLK day off as a holiday, yet took it off and called in yesterday saying her religous conviction were being violated forcing her to work on a national holiday. WHAT???? we'll find out about that today. ALl the other pple that worj there came to work, white, black, asian and 1 russian.

So again, it goes back to the person looking at the situation. You can change the way America works by changing the way you think. Quit using labels. Think upon all as Americans and not just a white man or a black man. It all starts with you. I have changed the ways I think and it works. But it does require everyperson to change. Quit thinking about themselves first and the country or employer or group or whatever first.

You're talking about one person as being representative of a whole race. I could give you 20, 30 or more stories about white people who I've worked with getting over. What's your point?

 

[royhitshard]

You're talking about one person as being representative of a whole race. I could give you 20, 30 or more stories about white people who I've worked with getting over. What's your point?

You just made his point and every other point...it is not about the color of the skin, but the person wearing the color. We need to have a big bon fire and burn all the race cards people use.:bang2:

 

[AbeBeta]

The Rooney rule is moronic. You cannot force people to hire.

The Rooney rule has no hiring requirements at all.

 

[marsbennett]

You just made his point and every other point...it is not about the color of the skin, but the person wearing the color. We need to have a big bon fire and burn all the race cards people use.:bang2:

toss these two excuse threads in there with them while you are at it.

 

[WoodysGirl]

The Rooney rule has no hiring requirements at all.

agreed. I posted it in the other thread, but I'll post it here, since it merits the same consideration.

Coaching searches become more inclusive

By CHRIS JENKINS

(AP) - Under pressure from civil rights advocates three years ago, the NFL established a rule requiring teams to interview at least one minority candidate before hiring a head coach.

But this year, the so-called "Rooney Rule" is being supplanted by one of football's more time-honoured tenets: If it works, consider copying it.

In a breakthrough year for black coaches, the Chicago Bears' Lovie Smith and Cincinnati Bengals' Marvin Lewis led recently downtrodden teams to the playoffs. Tony Dungy's Indianapolis Colts flirted with a perfect season.

Now their success - Smith and Dungy finished 1-2 in AP Coach of the Year voting - might be making less-successful teams more receptive to minority candidates.

"I don't think it's that simple," says Atlanta Falcons executive vice president Ray Anderson, a former agent to Dungy, Lewis and other top coaches. "But historically, there have been some 'copycat' tendencies in the league."

There are six black head coaches in the NFL: Smith, Dungy, Lewis, Arizona's Denny Green, Cleveland's Romeo Crennel and new Kansas City Chiefs coach Herman Edwards.

And judging by the way teams have conducted their coaching searches this off-season, more might be on the way - if not this year, then down the road.
With an unusually high number of open head coaching jobs this off-season, several teams have gone beyond NFL requirements to interview multiple minority candidates.

Even if most teams still end up hiring white coaches, the trend is seen as progress.

Cyrus Mehri, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who partnered with the late Johnnie Cochran to pressure the NFL into establishing minority hiring guidelines for teams after the 2002 season, expects to see a record number of minority coaching interviews this off-season.

Mehri says teams might finally be getting the message: They shouldn't interview minority candidates simply because they have to. They should want to, because it might improve their teams.

"If you give people the opportunity and open your mind to a broader slate of candidates, you can get results," Mehri says.

In October 2002, Cochran and Mehri issued a report titled, "Black Coaches in the National Football League: Superior Performance, Inferior Opportunities." They threatened to sue if the NFL didn't take steps to help minority coaching candidates.

The NFL hastily formed a diversity committee, chaired by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney. Rooney's rule: Before hiring a head coach, a team must interview at least one minority candidate, unless it is promoting a current assistant coach.

Mehri - legal counsel to the Fritz Pollard Alliance, an organization named after the NFL's first black head coach and set up to help develop minority coaching candidates - said their initial tone was "slightly adversarial" and didn't sit well with owners or fans.

"When the rule came out three years ago, there was a little bit of a pushback on it," Mehri said. "Now, people see the results."

They also saw what happened to Detroit Lions general manager Matt Millen.
Millen didn't interview a minority candidate before hiring Steve Mariucci in 2003. As criticism mounted, Millen couldn't find a minority candidate who would agree to what obviously would have been a token interview. The league fined Millen $200,000 US.

"There's teeth in that initiative," Anderson said.

Now the Lions are looking for Mariucci's replacement, and reportedly have spoken to at least three minority candidates: Bears Hall of Fame linebacker Mike Singletary, Browns offensive co-ordinator Maurice Carthon and New York Giants defensive co-ordinator Tim Lewis.

Mehri says he does not think Millen is simply trying to protect himself the second time around.

"I think it's sincere," Mehri said. "Because he didn't serve his team well just by interviewing one person."

According to media reports, Carthon also has interviewed with the Packers and Saints; Lewis has interviewed with the Packers and St. Louis Rams; Bears defensive coordinator Ron Rivera, who is Hispanic, has interviewed with the Packers and Rams; New York Jets defensive coordinator Donnie Henderson has interviewed with the Rams and Saints; and the Vikings interviewed Colts assistant head coach Jim Caldwell and their own defensive coordinator, Ted Cottrell.

The Vikings and Packers ultimately hired white coaches; Minnesota introduced Brad Childress last week and Green Bay hired Mike McCarthy on Thursday.

"It is progress when Maurice Carthon and Tim Lewis are getting multiple shots," Anderson said. "The rule was not intended to guarantee minorities a job. The rule was intended to give opportunity."

After firing coach Dom Capers, the Houston Texans interviewed wide receivers coach Kippy Brown, who is black.

Brown is considered a long shot to get the job. But a few years ago, he might not even have gotten the interview - which, at the very least, might give him more name recognition around the league.

"There was a time when guys that looked like me didn't get those opportunities," Brown said. "And now it's happening, so it's positive."

But the biggest sign of progress this week might have come from Kansas City, where the Chiefs sent a draft pick to the Jets to get Edwards.

Edwards, though respected in football circles, has a career 39-41 regular season record.

One of the main complaints advanced by Cochran and Mehri three years ago was that the few black coaches who were hired were "afforded far less room for error than similarly situated whites."

Edwards, meanwhile, wants to put the issue to rest.

"We're getting to the point where you don't say I'm an African-American coach," Edwards said. "I'm just 'Coach."'

link

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I just want to comment on this one statement because I have expressed my views in the other thread....

The problem is that these minority organizations and prominent speakers like Jesse Jackson think they are helping improve racial equality for minorities but in some ways they are hurting more than helping.

-Reality

Jessie Jackson and his ilk do not want racial equality for minorities. They want racial inequality for Whites. When you parade around supporting notions like affirmative action which is really discrimination, quota's and advantages on SAT scores, you are not looking for a level playing field. It is pure hypocricy.

This is not to say that all civil rights leaders are this way, but the most vocal and the most militant are this way and it gives the ignorant racisits in this country more fuel for their fire.

 

[AbeBeta]

Jessie Jackson and his ilk do not want racial equality for minorities. They want racial inequality for Whites. When you parade around supporting notions like affirmative action which is really discrimination, quota's and advantages on SAT scores, you are not looking for a level playing field. It is pure hypocricy.

Quotas are illegal -- they aren't and never were part of Affirmative action - that is an unfortunate misconception fostered by many anti-Affirmative Action folks.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Quotas are illegal -- they aren't and never were part of Affirmative action - that is an unfortunate misconception fostered by many anti-Affirmative Action folks.

BS. The Florida State police had quotas. One of my best friends was denied a position on the Florida State police because of quotas. He graduated in the top 1% of his class but because they needed to meet a quota, they chose a Black candidate who had a lower GPA and a lower class standing. Don't tell me there were not quotas because that is a flat out lie.

 

[AbeBeta]

BS. The Florida State police had quotas. One of my best friends was denied a position on the Florida State police because of quotas. He graduated in the top 1% of his class but because they needed to meet a quota, they chose a Black candidate who had a lower GPA and a lower class standing. Don't tell me there were not quotas because that is a flat out lie.

Cajun -- anyone reading even the basics of Affirmative Action law knows that quotas are illegal -- if the Florida police are using quotas they are doing so illegally - perhaps because they fail to understand the law.

I could argue this point with you 8 ways until Sunday -- but you can trust me on this one -- i've got some pretty detailed (some would say expert) knowledge of this specific topic.