Stephen Jones comments 2/28

[Yakuza Rich]

Great, in 3 years, Dez is done and 80% of Zeke's prime may be done.

Just like Emmitt and Irvin were done in 1992.




YR

 

[Deep_Freeze]

What got us to where we are on defense is trying to find that immediate impact player though and giving away picks or spending time on guys that weren't worth it.

We traded up to get DeMarcus Lawrence, lost a pick in the process and he's struggled with injuries and a suspension and while a solid player, nowhere near the impact player we thought.

Greg Hardy was a flop (thank god it was basically a pay-for-play deal we could get out of).

We tried to make the big splash with Randy Gregory and got hurt for it.

Rolando McClain was set to be our MIKE and is a waste of talent.

We had to get Mo Claiborne, traded up for him and gave up a pick in the process.

We had to get Brandon Carr and paid him like a top-5 corner.

Meanwhile, our best players on defense are guys like T. McClain who we got for dirt cheap in FA, David Irving who we got off a practice squad, Sean Lee who we spent a 2nd rounder on without trading up, Orlando Scandrick who we spent a 4th rounder on w/o trading up, Anthony Brown who we spent a 6th rounder on w/o trading up and Byron Jones who we waited until the 28th overall pick.

I don't want to wait 3-4 years to develop a formidable defense either, but our issue has been our impatience and it has us chasing our own tail in the end. Stay put, add picks, find BPA's and find coaching staffs that develop these players. It's really what we did in the Jimmy years and we were able to develop a formidable defense in 3 years and win 3 Super Bowls.

YR

I will maintain our best chance for immediate improvement on D is a trade, not free agency or the draft. People forget that Haley was a trade.

If the free agent market is horrible, and you can't depend on a #28 pick to bring a pass rusher who can bring it his first year (which you can't), there is only one other choice. Trade.

Its up to our 'GM' to find that trade, but that's really our only option to really improve this D next year.

 

[waldoputty]

Just like Emmitt and Irvin were done in 1992.

YR

Really objective using Emmitt's career as the basis
RBs' primes are typically 5 years.

Dez will be 29 come next season - hardly Irvin in 1992 when he was 26.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Really objective using Emmitt's career as the basis
RBs' primes are typically 5 years.

Yes, and in 3 years EE will be in his 4th year as a pro.

We can continue to try and make the splash in FA or trade away picks for that 1 defensive player and continue to spin our wheels.

It's really worked out great for us.





YR

 

[gimmesix]

@RoboQB

That is not correct. 3 of the 4 were from Free. The 4th was from Prescott flused from the pocket.
75% directly from Free.
25% from Free's man chasing Prescott after being flushed from the pocket.

Here are the 3 videos for Free's failures - ~40% of Dak's turnovers in 2016:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...mbles-as-Cowboys-drive-into-Packers-territory
http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/...e-Fumble/1230b3ae-f2a9-44be-961f-d3609267e7ab

OK, I see. You replaced the Pittsburgh video in the other thread where Free wasn't responsible with the Vikings thread. I agree that he was responsible on all three of these. I assumed you were still blaming him for Pittsburgh.

So he was responsible for 37.5 percent of all of Dak's turnovers and 75 percent of his lost fumbles (out of nine total fumbles).

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I will maintain our best chance for immediate improvement on D is a trade, not free agency or the draft. People forget that Haley was a trade.

If the free agent market is horrible, and you can't depend on a #28 pick to bring a pass rusher who can bring it his first year (which you can't), there is only one other choice. Trade.

Its up to our 'GM' to find that trade, but that's really our only option to really improve this D next year.

I agree because usually these trades are a bit lopsided because the team wants to get rid of the player. Like the Dolphins trading away Wes Welker for a 2nd round pick or Arizona robbing the Patriots for Chandler Jones by giving up Jonathan Cooper (who wasn't playing) and a 2nd round pick. Or the Pats getting Randy Moss for a 4th round pick. Or Dallas getting Terry Glenn for a 6th round pick.

When we trade up in a draft scenario, usually it's for a player that we may get anyway if we stay and wait and that player is completely unproven.

However, those deals are difficult to come by and more often than not, they are just not there until every 2-3 years.





YR

 

[Doomsday101]

Really objective using Emmitt's career as the basis
RBs' primes are typically 5 years.

Dez will be 29 come next season - hardly Irvin in 1992 when he was 26.

Then again the avg career of any NFL player is 3.3 years.

 

[waldoputty]

Yes, and in 3 years EE will be in his 4th year as a pro.

We can continue to try and make the splash in FA or trade away picks for that 1 defensive player and continue to spin our wheels.

It's really worked out great for us.

YR

Ah, in 3 years from now, it would be March 2020. Zeke would be finished with his 4th year...
You just wasted most of his prime.

Drafting is a crap shoot.
you have better chances when you draft higher.

FA is the safest route if the player was available.

The way we are managing our cap, we are going have lots of cap in 2019 and no where to spend the $.
If you look carefully at the cap expenditures per year, you would know that.

 

[waldoputty]

OK, I see. You replaced the Pittsburgh video in the other thread where Free wasn't responsible with the Vikings thread. I agree that he was responsible on all three of these. I assumed you were still blaming him for Pittsburgh.

So he was responsible for 37.5 percent of all of Dak's turnovers and 75 percent of his lost fumbles (out of nine total fumbles).

Yes, I figured out I screwed up the videos too, but could not find your post any more.
I would call it 40% because he had some blame on the 4th one, but that is splitting hairs.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

I agree because usually these trades are a bit lopsided because the team wants to get rid of the player. Like the Dolphins trading away Wes Welker for a 2nd round pick or Arizona robbing the Patriots for Chandler Jones by giving up Jonathan Cooper (who wasn't playing) and a 2nd round pick. Or the Pats getting Randy Moss for a 4th round pick. Or Dallas getting Terry Glenn for a 6th round pick.

When we trade up in a draft scenario, usually it's for a player that we may get anyway if we stay and wait and that player is completely unproven.

However, those deals are difficult to come by and more often than not, they are just not there until every 2-3 years.

YR

We are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. Trades like that don't come along too often, I just hope we are actually looking into it cause I do believe its our best chance to improve next year.

Hoping a rookie barely drafted before Tank will make a huge impact next year is a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[waldoputty]

We are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. Trades like that don't come along too often, I just hope we are actually looking into it cause I do believe its our best chance to improve next year.

Hoping a rookie barely drafted before Tank will make a huge impact next year is a bit of a stretch to me.

Jets wanted a 1st for Richardson last year?
With the lack of supply of DEs, only the Patriots are letting them leave or trading them for cheap.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Ah, in 3 years from now, it would be March 2020. Zeke would be finished with his 4th year...
You just wasted most of his prime.

Drafting is a crap shoot.
you have better chances when you draft higher.

FA is the safest route if the player was available.

The way we are managing our cap, we are going have lots of cap in 2019 and no where to spend the $.
If you look carefully at the cap expenditures per year, you would know that.

FA is not the safest route. Far from it. Rarely is unless you're talking about a QB and even then it's still risky.

If FA was the safest route, the Skins would have 7 Super Bowls by now.








YR

 

[waldoputty]

FA is not the safest route. Far from it. Rarely is unless you're talking about a QB and even then it's still risky.

If FA was the safest route, the Skins would have 7 Super Bowls by now.

YR

Nothing is safe.
But if you do take serious measures to fix the DL, you already know you cannot the other side's O.

For those who want to build from the draft, going FA on the D (or something like RT) actually ALLOWS you to go BPA. If you want to play odds, that increases the chance you can strike gold with the draft.

FA allows us to play with the best team money can almost buy.
It allows you to BPA to keep drafting probowlers with best possible odds.
And there is plenty of cap manueverability once you get to 2019.
With Romo's salary and the cap escalation, we can do it even if we sign 3 top FAs.
So why not both?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Nothing is safe.
But if you do take serious measures to fix the DL, you already know you cannot the other side's O.

For those who want to build from the draft, going FA on the D (or something like RT) actually ALLOWS you to go BPA. If you want to play odds, that increases the chance you can strike gold with the draft.

FA allows us to play with the best team money can almost buy.
It allows you to BPA to keep drafting probowlers with best possible odds.
And there is plenty of cap manueverability once you get to 2019.
With Romo's salary and the cap escalation, we can do it even if we sign 3 top FAs.
So why not both?

You're problem is that you're neglecting new contracts that we need to give players that we drafted (or UDFA's) that we want to keep like EE, Dak, Zack, Leary, Byron, etc.

I think most people here would consider La'Roi Glover to be a great signing. He was excellent in 2002, strong in 2003 and solid in 2004. But, we changed schemes in 2005 and he was done for. What it added up to was a player that was still productive, but did not live up to the money we paid him. And Glover was a *good* signing by FA standards.

Furthermore, defensive players in the NFL has historically been more than twice as likely to get injured than offensive players which makes defensive FA signings even more risky.

There are multiple issues with higher priced FA's but when it comes down to it, it's a player that the last team didn't care to re-sign him for the price he's asking, he is very unlikely to live up to his contract (bad value) and it's a 'win now' mentality when your best bet is to grow your team thru the draft and continually make the playoffs and increase your chances of turning some of those playoff appearances into Super Bowl titles.

That beats the 'win now' philosophy where you may make a run one year and then don't have enough depth the next year and lose key homegrown players and miss the playoffs. We haven't returned to the playoffs 2 years in a row since 2007.






YR

 

[waldoputty]

You're problem is that you're neglecting new contracts that we need to give players that we drafted (or UDFA's) that we want to keep like EE, Dak, Zack, Leary, Byron, etc.

I think most people here would consider La'Roi Glover to be a great signing. He was excellent in 2002, strong in 2003 and solid in 2004. But, we changed schemes in 2005 and he was done for. What it added up to was a player that was still productive, but did not live up to the money we paid him. And Glover was a *good* signing by FA standards.

Furthermore, defensive players in the NFL has historically been more than twice as likely to get injured than offensive players which makes defensive FA signings even more risky.

There are multiple issues with higher priced FA's but when it comes down to it, it's a player that the last team didn't care to re-sign him for the price he's asking, he is very unlikely to live up to his contract (bad value) and it's a 'win now' mentality when your best bet is to grow your team thru the draft and continually make the playoffs and increase your chances of turning some of those playoff appearances into Super Bowl titles.

That beats the 'win now' philosophy where you may make a run one year and then don't have enough depth the next year and lose key homegrown players and miss the playoffs. We haven't returned to the playoffs 2 years in a row since 2007.

YR

Unless Collins moves to RT, we are not keeping Leary.
Now there is word that Free is not retiring... so who knows.

Actually I looked at all the contracts.
Martin and Collins are accounted for in the next year or so.
With a $10M yr AAV type contract, their year 1 and year 2 caps are no problem.
Jones is the only one who we may keep and cost money.
If he is worth keeping, we would likely sign him at the end of 2018.
There is far more than enough cap to account for Jones.
Regarding Dak and Jaylon and Zeke, their contracts would not come up until the end of 2019.
There is $130M of cap space in 2020.
Lets say Dak gets a $20M AAV 5 years contract, the year 1 and 2 of that is really cheap for a franchise QB.

It is not just a win now mentality.
With the new cap reality, we can win now and win later.
If we do the Giant D rebuilt, we may have to cut the FAs at the end of 2019.
However if we draft well in those 3 years, it would not even matter.
If our drafts are bad, then we would have lost in 2017-2019 anyway.

The difference is that you synchronize the D rebuilt to match Dez's remaining good years and the heart of Zeke's prime.
It is reality.
What you are saying applies to pre-2015 cap structure.
The new cap escalation changes the game.
We can optimize our near-term and long-term winning odds by adjusting to the new reality.

 

[DandyDon52]

So they dont want other teams players? be awful if we got a guy like Cook.
FA you can get some good players that are not expensive if your smart.

I think also the cowboys had a good draft, and then the whole Dak thing, and they think they can do that again.
Getting players thru the Draft is the best way, but FA should be used too.

And they arent even talking to romo or his agent ??? ......ok

And Jaylon will play no matter what , braces crutches dont matter get him in there !

Free and most others will be back resigned etc, the FO sees a 13-3 team, which can do better than that,
and it is SB time !!