Stopping the New Romo Myth

[DallasEast]

Even if he happen to be for one season or a few games. It doesnt make him better than Brees under any scenario. There is no temporary better. There is only better.
Romo is NOT better than Brees.

I'm a literal person so I feel it necessary to pose the question.

Romo performed better than Brees last season. Do you agree or disagree that Romo's level of performance was greater than Brees?

 

[CowboyRoy]

It means at this stage in their careers, Romo is a better QB. You do know players decline right?

Yah.........ummm........Sorry, there is no way that Romo is better than Brees right now. And both players are declining. The only difference is that at this current juncture, Romo has a better cast of characters around him. That doesnt make him better.

 

[WillieBeamen]

Yah.........ummm........Sorry, there is no way that Romo is better than Brees right now. And both players are declining. The only difference is that at this current juncture, Romo has a better cast of characters around him. That doesnt make him better.

How is Romo declining when he had the best season of his career? You apparently havent been watching the Cowboys to make a claim like that.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I'm a literal person so I feel it necessary to pose the question.

Romo performed better than Brees last season. Do you agree or disagree that Romo's level of performance was greater than Brees?

I would say that Romo had better numbers by a slight margin. The difference was the interception numbers. So yah, I would say slightly better.

But if you break down the reasons why its pretty clear. The team around Brees last year was not near as the quality as Romo. It was almost like Brees had to deal with what Romo usually does. A poor run game, a poor line, and a poor defense.

And no, as stated before, that doesnt make Romo better than Brees right now.

Brees has been 5000 yards and 40-50 TD's year in and year out for like 8 years now.

 

[DallasEast]

I would say that Romo had better numbers by a slight margin. The difference was the interception numbers. So yah, I would say slightly better.

But if you break down the reasons why its pretty clear. The team around Brees last year was not near as the quality as Romo. It was almost like Brees had to deal with what Romo usually does. A poor run game, a poor line, and a poor defense.

And no, as stated before, that doesnt make Romo better than Brees right now.

So Romo performed temporarily better than Brees, correct?

Brees has been 5000 yards and 40-50 TD's year in and year out for like 8 years now.

Your total yardage claim is somewhat of an exaggeration but Brees' annual passing touchdown productivity..?

http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/profile

Lately, it's like "Come on man" on the Cowboyszone Fan Forum.

 

[CowboyRoy]

So Romo performed temporarily better than Brees, correct?
Your total yardage claim is somewhat of an exaggeration but Brees' annual passing touchdown productivity..?

http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/profile

Lately, it's like "Come on man" on the Cowboyszone Fan Forum.

LOL.......yah, temporarily better slighty. (with reasons)

And yes, it looks like TD totals were a little more than I said. But some of those passing yardage numbers are ridiculous.

I

 

[TheDude]

We just disagree on our respective blind guesses as to the probabilities of a big positive play if Tony does that that ball off downfield to Dez. The way Dez plays, I don't believe a PI call or a big play after the catch are all that unheard of. We've seen him do it before. Last year v. JAX in London, for example. We've got an effective passing combination, nothing wrong in using it to threaten the defense.

First, I want to really be clear I was all for every play until the last play. That play has to binary once snapped (if you arent going to kneel) - Drop back and heave it or give yourself up if there is a breakdown. Any other option prolongs the play and has exponentially diminishing chances of scoring as time is the limiter, but the likelihood of an necessary negative outcome at least remains constant if not increasing. You dont want risk to converge on reward

That is a fair comparison at the start. The similarity was that the start of the drive was :31 vs 27 sec and starting on the 32yrd line vs 30yd line. But after that the comparison breaks down.

• Dallas 2 timeouts vs Jax. and had NO Timeouts ws Washington. I havent looked at the All-22, but defending a team with :31 seconds vs :04 is much different. All plays are open in the Jax game. Pass only is available in Washington (if you are trying to score).
• In the Jax game, they went deep and scored on the first play. In Wash, they ran 4 plays got 16 yards, then a holding penalty backed them back to where the basically started.

Romo's real fault to me here is the "pass" to Choice. I'll set aside the minuscule probability of a score on the outlet, but throwing what likely is a backhanded flip that is near a lateral is playground junk. I love Romo, that trait makes for some great highlights, but this was one instant that the decision was bad on paper, but to the eye, it was horrendous. We can run hypotheticals all day, but I submit he broke 2 sound Parcell's commandments here

7. Throwing the ball away is a good play – sacks, interceptions and fumbles are bad plays. Protect against those.
8. Learn to manage the game – personnel, play call, motions, ball handling, proper reads, accurate throws, play fakes. Clock. Clock. Clock. Don’t you ever lose track of the clock.

It just wasn't good situational football. This was the "Favre-Romo" I put more of the blame on the coach. The coach should know Romo never gives up on plays - there's more good in that than bad, but the odds were stacked with :04 seconds. I dont think Parcells ever allows that last play to occur like that.

I imagine the outlet to Choice was built into the play. You're right that there's no point in throwing it once the pressure breaks down. Tony would have been smarter to just dump it. Still, though, he was open, and he caught the ball. Again, the real negative with the play was the strip-fumble return when he got stood up on the sideline in the open field. And that could have happened in that situation on any down and people would have been ok with it.

I bet you more than half of Cowboy Nation was at home saying 'good, way to be aggressive before half. Now let's get some points,' about two seconds before coming on CZ and freaking out about how stupid that play call was. But it's the strip-fumble-return that they really should be unhappy about.

Well, not me. I can try to go back and find the game thread. :27 seconds yes....:04 no

I'll have to go back and look at other games, but there have been others where we are at the 30 with one play left and have dumped passes off to RBs and they have ran out of bounds. If you take a shot, take a shot that gives you an >1% chance. Being aggressive and "shots" Im all for. Plays liek this are just not smart situational football.

Thank god there arent a ton of them

 

[DallasEast]

LOL.......yah, temporarily better slighty. (with reasons)

And yes, it looks like TD totals were a little more than I said. But some of those passing yardage numbers are ridiculous.

I

Understandable. Sean Payton's offense is geared to spreading the ball around. Brees has some quality targets to pass the ball. I doubt there will be a noticeable decline during the post-Graham era.

 

[CowboyRoy]

How is Romo declining when he had the best season of his career? You apparently havent been watching the Cowboys to make a claim like that.

He is 36 pal, lets be realistic here. Romo had one of his best season no doubt. But since you claim to watch the Cowboys, then you would know that he now plays behind the best line in football and he had the best run game in franchise history to fall back on. And wow, he actually has a real OC for the first time in his career.

Mince all the words you want, Romo is not better than Brees.

But its great to hear fans talking about Romo being better than Brees and being in his prime. I have spent the last 8 years trying to convince the Romo haters that Romo was a good QB and everything wasnt his fault.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Understandable. Sean Payton's offense is geared to spreading the ball around. Brees has some quality targets to pass the ball. I doubt there will be a noticeable decline during the post-Graham era.

Yah, but outside of Graham, who has he really had? Losing Sproles hurt him and I definitely think losing Graham will hurt him. That team appears to be fading badly.

 

[ufcrules1]

Its not a different argument at its foundation. I agree you try to get a score with 30 seconds left....not with :04 from that far away. Down 0-3 with :04 and needing a 30 yard penalty as your only remote positive outcome vs getting a strip sack, Int, fumble, etc. just doesnt play the percentages.

In that game the defense gave up a FG in the 1st qtr and the 4th qtr. 6 points. The offense gave up 7 points. At the end of the day, that was an offensive meltdown from garrett to Romo to choice.

It wasn't a negative stat on Romo, but the prudent football play would have been to slide versus chucking a lateral. The even smarter call is for garrett to kneel on it. This is why stats are pretty useless in football because of these isolated instances with multiple option trees and scenarios. If this was a pass vs lateral, it goes down as a completion and wasn't a bad outcome. However, and ironically in this instance, wth :04 left, I would have been fine with your approach to chuck it down field and pray for PI. If it was intercepted, the Romo stat looks worse, but the probability of Wash scoring from a Hail mary jump ball is much smaller than a potential lateral under duress and getting 1 yard. Things like this dont show up in a stat sheet, other than increasing the probability of an "L" outcome.

Its 16 games where 1 or 2 plays can decide 2-3 games per year. That variance was well in the channel of missing the playoffs 2011,2012 and 2013.

Outstanding post. Stats are interesting but they hide a lot of the story. Especially in football.

People can point to stats all they want with Romo but if he doesn't carry his team at critical times deep in the playoffs/ super bowl, he will have no chance at the hall. Stats can be argued until the cows come home but at the end of the day the player has to pass the eye test and come through when needed most.

 

[DallasEast]

Yah, but outside of Graham, who has he really had? Losing Sproles hurt him and I definitely think losing Graham will hurt him. That team appears to be fading badly.

I would say Brees losing quality protection in front of him, like Carl Nicks to the Bucs, has been more damaging to him than who is set behind him and on the wings. Remember, he still has Brandin Cooks. Watch for Payton to showcase Cooks more in the passing game this upcoming season.

 

[ufcrules1]

He is 36 pal, lets be realistic here. Romo had one of his best season no doubt. But since you claim to watch the Cowboys, then you would know that he now plays behind the best line in football and he had the best run game in franchise history to fall back on. And wow, he actually has a real OC for the first time in his career.

Mince all the words you want, Romo is not better than Brees.

But its great to hear fans talking about Romo being better than Brees and being in his prime. I have spent the last 8 years trying to convince the Romo haters that Romo was a good QB and everything wasnt his fault.

One of them is guaranteed to make the hall and the other doesn't have a chance in hell unless he does something very substantial with all that help he has around him these days. The Cowboys have an EXTREMELY Qb friendly team right now.

 

[DallasEast]

Outstanding post. Stats are interesting but they hide a lot of the story. Especially in football.

People can point to stats all they want with Romo but if he doesn't carry his team at critical times deep in the playoffs/ super bowl, he will have no chance at the hall. Stats can be argued until the cows come home but at the end of the day the player has to pass the eye test and come through when needed most.

Romo threw a perfect pass on fourth down at Lombardi Field with the game on the line. Whose fault that his pass was eventually negated? Romo?

Romo critics.

 

[TheDude]

Outstanding post. Stats are interesting but they hide a lot of the story. Especially in football.

People can point to stats all they want with Romo but if he doesn't carry his team at critical times deep in the playoffs/ super bowl, he will have no chance at the hall. Stats can be argued until the cows come home but at the end of the day the player has to pass the eye test and come through when needed most.

Its really unfair to expect Romo alone to carry a team. I think you can win with Romo. He has won a couple playoff games and I cant put GB on him.

An argument can likely be made that Romo some of those 8-8 teams overachieve as they had 4-12 talent.

 

[ufcrules1]

Its really unfair to expect Romo alone to carry a team. I think you can win with Romo. He has won a couple playoff games and I cant put GB on him.

An argument can likely be made that Romo some of those 8-8 teams overachieve as they had 4-12 talent.

The argument can also be made that he didn't do his part to get those 8-8 teams in the playoffs too. I don't think for a second those teams were 4-12 teams and turned into 8-8 all because of Romo.

Also, Romo doesn't have to carry the team alone. The teams help him get there but sometimes it takes a QB to go above and beyond to put his team in a position to win in those tight playoff games. I don't fault him for the GB game either, it was a team loss. WIth that said, he didn't do anything jaw dropping either. Look at Brady in the playoffs, he was a big reason his team advanced and he played a monster role in the super bowl as well throwing 4 tds. His RB's are playing crappy? No problem, he will just throw the ball 50 times and help to outscore the opponent and they can't do squat about it.

Romo is going to have to do something like this to be seen in the eyes of many as deserving of the hall. He has had one season where he played good in the playoffs and that was last year. The argument can be made that it takes having a top 2 offensive line and a top 2 running game in the entire NFL for Romo to go anywhere in the playoffs. I think there are plenty of QB's that could strive in that environment.

 

[5Stars]

Romo threw a perfect pass on fourth down at Lombardi Field with the game on the line. Whose fault that his pass was eventually negated? Romo?

Romo critics.

He can't read you....! lol...stupid Romo lover!

 

[TheDude]

The argument can also be made that he didn't do his part to get those 8-8 teams in the playoffs too. I don't think for a second those teams were 4-12 teams and turned into 8-8 all because of Romo.

Also, Romo doesn't have to carry the team alone. The teams help him get there but sometimes it takes a QB to go above and beyond to put his team in a position to win in those tight playoff games. I don't fault him for the GB game either, it was a team loss. WIth that said, he didn't do anything jaw dropping either. Look at Brady in the playoffs, he was a big reason his team advanced and he played a monster role in the super bowl as well throwing 4 tds. His RB's are playing crappy? No problem, he will just throw the ball 50 times and help to outscore the opponent and they can't do squat about it.

Romo is going to have to do something like this to be seen in the eyes of many as deserving of the hall. He has had one season where he played good in the playoffs and that was last year. The argument can be made that it takes having a top 2 offensive line and a top 2 running game in the entire NFL for Romo to go anywhere in the playoffs. I think there are plenty of QB's that could strive in that environment.

I have no problem ceding the point that Romo isnt Brady, P. Manning, Rogers or Brees. Which is why I dont expect Romo consistently chuck it 50 times and call him Brady-south. I dont think he is a prototype, anticipatory thrower like an Aikman, but more of a Farve who will not throw it away and wait for a route to develop a little more separation before throwing. That can be ok, but can be dangerous against teams with good pass rushes. I think Favre was highly overrated and cost huge games and numerous losses. Romo is more contained, but he still has to be saved from himself sometimes. On the flip side, a guy like Carson Palmer is textbook, but not necessarily flashy enough to improvise.

A manning or Brady team will likely always be at or > 10 wins (though they have played in some sorry overall divisions). But I dont see Romo is significantly worse then Wilson, Flacco and Eli (2) or even Ben (I think he is better than many). Which means he has as good a chance to win 3-4 game sin a row if he gets to the playoffs. Flacco and Eli are prime examples.

I dont know if it is worth going back into the 8-8 seasons, but that roster near what it is now. Costa, Berny, Livings, Ratliff, Coleman, Ball, Sensabaugh, McCray, Heath. B James and Newman were done, Hamstring Austin was never the same after 2009, etc. In addition, Garrett muffed a few games (i.e. this Wash game - moreso the AZ game, Lions/GB, etc).

All I know is Stephen MaGee, Jay Cutler, Sanchez, Tanneyhill, Stafford, Bradford, Freeman, Ponder, Gabbert, Vick/smith, Schaub, Locker, Alex Smith, werent going to get the 2011-2013 teams over the hump and I think they would have been worse even with an Eli, Falcco, and maybe Ben.

This team hasnt exactly been stockpiling backup talent at the QB spot

 

[DFWJC]

I think the old impression that Romo has Favre's bad qualities is outdated.

He certainly for throw it away for example.
The ball hit the grown 4 times vs GB
2 throw aways
1 drop
Dez catch

 

[TheDude]

I would say that Romo had better numbers by a slight margin. The difference was the interception numbers. So yah, I would say slightly better.

But if you break down the reasons why its pretty clear. The team around Brees last year was not near as the quality as Romo. It was almost like Brees had to deal with what Romo usually does. A poor run game, a poor line, and a poor defense.

And no, as stated before, that doesnt make Romo better than Brees right now.

Brees has been 5000 yards and 40-50 TD's year in and year out for like 8 years now.

The Saints have a couple of 7-9 finishes in the last few years....When the team isnt that good, Brees hasnt exactly driven them to the playoffs every year. In fact the NFC South last year rivals an all-time worst division...and he was the best QB in their - By Far