Sturm blog: Chatting Cowboys with Rafael Vela

[godofwar]

I'd like to know why Vela is so down on Holland. Is the reason because it took so long for him to see the field? In limited action, I got the impression he fared better than Proctor.

 

[stilltheguru]

I disagree with Vela on the carries for all three backs, I also disagree with him on who is the most complete back on the team(Choice is). I disagree with him on the uspposedly decline of T.O., (watch this season in Buffalo).

I disagree with him on Garrett, Jason did not utilize his best talent at all last season, T.O. and Felix he should have been on the field day one and on the field a lot.

I agree they should have addressed the OL, once again they failed to get the OL younger. Colombo was brought to Dallas to be the LT, when they thought they would lose Flo to FA, once Colombo took the RT position they should have kept him working on the LT spot, and when they got DAvis He should have been working both the RG and the RT spot, Holland was and is good enough to take that spot from Kosier.

But they need to give those other OL guys another week to show something, if not start moving them and finding some VET FA that can fill in until Draft time and then make a concert effort to draft OL heavy as well as WR, then LB.

I read Vela's posts all the time, he is good, he knows football but even the best of us are wrong at times, and those things I put in my post is the things I believe he is off this time.
I'll say this again, Vela is good, but everyone has off days.

AHHH, he's just saying what most of the board is saying. When TO balls out nobody will say a word. The zone way

 

[Idgit]

AHHH, he's just saying what most of the board is saying. When TO balls out nobody will say a word. The zone way

If TO balls out, we'll say we're glad he's gone and that he wasn't worth the headache at his age. And we'll be right.

 

[Zaxor]

If TO balls out, we'll say we're glad he's gone .

You got that right...

Oopps I read an "are" right before "out" ... but either way you got that right

 

[stilltheguru]

If TO balls out, we'll say we're glad he's gone and that he wasn't worth the headache at his age. And we'll be right.

He may be a headache, but the decline talk is humorous. For all the talk about how Skins fans are on ES, it's pretty much the same over here. When a player leaves do everything in your power to put them down and spin it into a plus for the team. Change this site to extremeboys.com

 

[Idgit]

He may be a headache, but the decline talk is humorous. For all the talk about how Skins fans are on ES, it's pretty much the same over here. When a player leaves do everything in your power to put them down and spin it into a plus for the team. Change this site to extremeboys.com

Please. You don't even believe that, and you just typed it. TO is a controversial figure. It's no surprise that a lot of people wanted him gone. Many didn't want him here in the first place. He's hardly the victim of Cowboy fan revisionist history.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

He may be a headache, but the decline talk is humorous. For all the talk about how Skins fans are on ES, it's pretty much the same over here. When a player leaves do everything in your power to put them down and spin it into a plus for the team. Change this site to extremeboys.com

Yeah, because his 8 games of sub-40 yards of production was an obvious sign of his continued greatness.

If Singletary wasn't an idiot and try to let a slower CB cover him man to man without jamming him, the "mouth that roars" wouldn't have broken 900 yards for the season.

 

[Alexander]

I agree, but I think Jerry's thinking was that he wanted to avoid the "I deserve an extension now!" drama that may have happened. He wanted a happy, non-disruptive, TO.

Unfortunately, as we all know, that didn't exactly work out....:doh:

He should have learned that Owens was on his best behavior in Dallas while he was working year to year though.

It is not like he's a young player that could name his price anymore after burning two bridges. Despite what both he and Rosenhaus stated, his signing with Buffalo wasn't a case of the highest bidder winning. They took the first offer that came along while the iron was hot.

I honestly believe if Owens wasn't extended we wouldn't have seen the type of issues that erupted last year. He would have kept control over himself until he got it. Jerry Jones just jumped the gun. It isn't like he hasn't done that type of pointless extension before.

 

[Alexander]

He may be a headache, but the decline talk is humorous. For all the talk about how Skins fans are on ES, it's pretty much the same over here. When a player leaves do everything in your power to put them down and spin it into a plus for the team. Change this site to extremeboys.com

While part of what you say is accurate (our fans are no different), Owens was indeed a declining player. It was to the stage where the headache as you put it was not offset by his abilities anymore.

 

[Goldenrichards83]

Vela has some of the best football intelligence around. Love his work, however there are a few things I disagree on.

• TO hasn't lost anything. He had 69 catches, 1,052 yards and 10tds with his starting QB missing 3 games and good ole noodle arm Johnson throwing him the ball. What would his stats be if Romo doesn't miss those games or if we had a decent backup.
• Choice having 3 carries a game is criminal. This guy needs at least 7-10 carries a game. Imo he has the best vision among all the backs and anywhere else he would be a starter. He need s to play and I think he will force the Cowboys hand in the near future. I look for this kid to have a big year. Lets not forget what this guy did against the #1 defense(Steelers) at their place. He is simply a beast.

I think a major mistake going into this year is not addressing the backup DT position in the draft. There were alot of guys to chose from but we decided to pass on all of them. That would have been fine if we would have address it by bringing in someone who at least played a down of football lastyear but we decide to give Siavii a shot and a guy Tim Anderson who has been out of football the last 2 years. I hope I'm wrong but this has disaster written all over it.

 

[Goldenrichards83]

While part of what you say is accurate (our fans are no different), Owens was indeed a declining player. It was to the stage where the headache as you put it was not offset by his abilities anymore.

I disagree. In 07 Owens had 81 catches for 1,355 and 15 tds his best year with the Cowboys. He would only need 303 yds 5 tds and
12 catches to match his 07 numbers.

Those game were against the Giants, Rams and Bucs. TO feast on the giants. In 07 alone he had 9 catches 212 and 4tds in two games. In fairness TO in 08 did have 3 catches for 38 yds against the Giants in 08 but that was the game where Cory Procter and our oline made the Giants look like the Steel curtain and almost broke Romos back. T.Choice had 91 yds rushing that game and was our leading receiver. Romo really showed his toughness in that game.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29750&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&season=2008&week=REG15

I think with Romo at the helm or a competent backup TO could have match or surpass those numbers.

 

[Alexander]

I disagree. In 07 Owens had 81 catches for 1,355 and 15 tds his best year with the Cowboys. He would only need 303 yds 5 tds and
12 catches to match his 07 numbers.

Given the fact he had only two one hundred yard games all season (one in the hopeless finale), you think he would have had three more against the Bucs, Rams and Giants with a healthy Romo?

Again, that kind of production didn't offset the negatives that were getting bigger and bigger the more we struggled. We took the other end of the trade-off and I believe it was the right decision, although it isn't easy to dismiss Owens' reputation. But it was clear we either couldn't scheme to get him open enough and/or he had trouble beating the press. That was pretty obvious.

 

[Goldenrichards83]

Given the fact he had only two one hundred yard games all season (one in the hopeless finale), you think he would have had three more against the Bucs, Rams and Giants with a healthy Romo?

Again, that kind of production didn't offset the negatives that were getting bigger and bigger the more we struggled. We took the other end of the trade-off and I believe it was the right decision, although it isn't easy to dismiss Owens' reputation. But it was clear we either couldn't scheme to get him open enough and/or he had trouble beating the press. That was pretty obvious.

I don't know about the yardage but I do think he could have had more than 12 catches and at least match the Tds. Whats a few yards here or there. I mean if he had 81 catches 15 tds and 1,288 yds would we still say he is losing a step?

I agree with you in the sense that I think he needed to go because of the divisiveness he had in the lockerroom. However TO declined is exaggeratted due to him not having his QB and a inability of Jason Garrett scheming to get him the ball. We also need to rememeber that at times Romo wasn't the most accurate guy last year due to his injured hand. I will say this though, if TO has lost a step it isn't as major as most of the media makes it out to be.

 

[Alexander]

I will say this though, if TO has lost a step it isn't as major as most of the media makes it out to be.

I won't say he's completely washed up like say Jerry Rice was at the end. He's too great of an athlete. I expect about what he did last year with us. But he'll fall off eventually. They all do.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Vela has some of the best football intelligence around. Love his work, however there are a few things I disagree on.

• TO hasn't lost anything. He had 69 catches, 1,052 yards and 10tds with his starting QB missing 3 games and good ole noodle arm Johnson throwing him the ball. What would his stats be if Romo doesn't miss those games or if we had a decent backup.
• Choice having 3 carries a game is criminal. This guy needs at least 7-10 carries a game. Imo he has the best vision among all the backs and anywhere else he would be a starter. He need s to play and I think he will force the Cowboys hand in the near future. I look for this kid to have a big year. Lets not forget what this guy did against the #1 defense(Steelers) at their place. He is simply a beast.

I think a major mistake going into this year is not addressing the backup DT position in the draft. There were alot of guys to chose from but we decided to pass on all of them. That would have been fine if we would have address it by bringing in someone who at least played a down of football lastyear but we decide to give Siavii a shot and a guy Tim Anderson who has been out of football the last 2 years. I hope I'm wrong but this has disaster written all over it.

TO was maybe the most inefficient #1 WR's in the NFL last year. It's a two man race between he and Braylon Edwards. Among the top 20 WRs in targets, only TO and Edwards had below a 50% success rate on their target attempts. A ridiculously bad conversion rate (and a lot of WRs were much more efficient working with much less in QBs and surrounding teammates).

You point to accumulative stats, but they don't speak the entire story and completely ignore efficiency. It's like saying a RB must be good because he had 1,000 yards rushing and double digit TD's and ignoring that he had 3.3 ypc on 330+ carries and that the teams force fed him the ball on the goalline whether he was effective or not (we call this Shaun Alexander Syndrome). Offensive possessions are precious things. A finite resource. Too many were thrown down the toilet last year trying to feed one player who continually put his team in improbable long down and distance situations because he couldn't convert on his targets, which led to punts and three and outs.

To relate it to another sport .... Allen Iverson can still put up 25 points in a game, but if he does it on 12 of 36 shooting he still had an awful night and hurt his team more than he helped. He took shots, again a finite commodity, away from teammates who more efficiently use them.

 

[Dodger]

Great stuff once again by Vela, though before I read this I was only a bit concerned about the offensive line; Now I'm pretty stressed.

 

[jterrell]

a few notes:

1) T.O. is probably declining. All players inevitably do as they age. At the same time his decline is probably way oversold. He only had 3 100 yard games in 2008 but he had a healthy Tony Romo maybe 6 games. And beyond that as other offensive options fell T.O. was quite well focused on by defenses.

Want an example of a non-T.O. yet elite WR? Try Randy Moss.
2007: 98 catches, 23 TDs, just under 1500 yards receiving.
2008: 69 catches, 11 TDs, just over 1000 yards receiving.

All players are affected by those around them and the offenses they run. And the 2008 Cowboys had issues on the OL and at QB that they did not have in 2007. Not sure how that could not effect a WR.

Everyone thought Moss was done prior to that 1500 yard season.
I'd not make the same mistake with T.O. even if I agreed that the headache wasn't worth the production.

2) Tashard Choice did show up and he clearly has great vision which is a key to any running back's success but again his numbers are probably inflated. Any DC in the league would be fired for created a scheme that puts 8 in the box to stop Choice while running straight man on T.O.

We have to be careful not to believe the people who disliked T.O. most with regard to the coverage he faced. I saw with my own eyes as linebackers shifted to him and safeties cheated towards him as well as having a CB in his grill at the snap. That's a lot of attention and that helped Choice immeasurably. Felix would not have been given that lack of focus because, like T.O., you give him an inch of free space and he can take it to the house on you.

All that said 3 carries sounds like nothing. I'd expect it to be closer to 5. 16 for Barber, 12 for Felix, 5 for Choice sounds better to me. Felix would get many more receptions than either guy as he'd be my own version of Westbrook. But this presumes good health for Barber and Felix all year. If either guy went down it's Choice who picks up the slack. The value of TC imho is that he can replace either guy without changing the game plan.

 

[jterrell]

TO was maybe the most inefficient #1 WR's in the NFL last year. It's a two man race between he and Braylon Edwards. Among the top 20 WRs in targets, only TO and Edwards had below a 50% success rate on their target attempts.

You point to accumulative stats, but they don't speak the entire story ... mainly efficiency. It's like saying a RB must be good because he had 1,000 yards rushing and double digit TD's and ignoring that he had 3.3 ypc on 330+ carries and that the teams force fed him the ball on the goalline whether he was effective or not (we call this Shaun Alexander Syndrome). Offensive possessions are precious things. A finite resource. Too many were thrown down the toilet last year trying to feed one player who continually put his team in improbable down and distance situations.

Allen Iverson can still put up 25 points in a game, but if he does it on 12 of 36 shooting he still had an awful night. He took shots away from teammates who more efficiently score, and hurt his team more than he helped in the process.

The problem with your stat here is that it is merely descriptive of a down season, not an illusion to any real condition that exists with T.O. necessarily.

Our own RW11 had one great season while T.O. had one bad one. I don't think we can use either example as evidence of their talent levels. It takes a much broader look.

I don't expect T.O. to be amazing this year or ever again as I don't expect he gets the weapons and offense around him ever again he had in 2007. But he may well have more than he did in 2008 as a Bill this upcoming season. I would expect that young Bill QB eventually grows to hate T.O. but right now like a young Tomy Romo, T.O. can bring him stardom and recognition. As T.O. does silly end zone rituals, it's understood the guy throwing the passes gets mentioned as well.

 

[stilltheguru]

The problem with your stat here is that it is merely descriptive of a down season, not an illusion to any real condition that exists with T.O. necessarily.

Our own RW11 had one great season while T.O. had one bad one. I don't think we can use either example as evidence of their talent levels. It takes a much broader look.

I don't expect T.O. to be amazing this year or ever again as I don't expect he gets the weapons and offense around him ever again he had in 2007. But he may well have more than he did in 2008 as a Bill this upcoming season. I would expect that young Bill QB eventually grows to hate T.O. but right now like a young Tomy Romo, T.O. can bring him stardom and recognition. As T.O. does silly end zone rituals, it's understood the guy throwing the passes gets mentioned as well.

I just hope Trent is more grateful when TO makes him a millionaire than Romo was.

 

[zrinkill]

I just hope Trent is more grateful when TO makes him a millionaire than Romo was.

When has your obsession ever been grateful to anyone?