Sturm blog: Chatting Cowboys with Rafael Vela

Idgit

Fattening up
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zrinkill;2868014 said:
When has your obsession ever been grateful to anyone?

TO shows Jerry Rice a lot of respect, still. It always surprises me and sounds unnatural coming from him. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. Anyway, how'd we end up with another TO thread? It's been soo nice to have that nonsense fade completely into the background with the start of preseason. One thing's for sure, you don't sense any acrimony on the offensive side of the ball with this team. Any TO hangover the players had was short-lived.
 

stilltheguru

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All my hate for Romo and Roy is out of the window. We'll see what they both are made of come September 13th. No more bitterness from me.
 

BAT

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jterrell;2867990 said:
a few notes:

1) T.O. is probably declining. All players inevitably do as they age. At the same time his decline is probably way oversold. He only had 3 100 yard games in 2008 but he had a healthy Tony Romo maybe 6 games. And beyond that as other offensive options fell T.O. was quite well focused on by defenses.

Want an example of a non-T.O. yet elite WR? Try Randy Moss.
2007: 98 catches, 23 TDs, just under 1500 yards receiving.
2008: 69 catches, 11 TDs, just over 1000 yards receiving.

All players are affected by those around them and the offenses they run. And the 2008 Cowboys had issues on the OL and at QB that they did not have in 2007. Not sure how that could not effect a WR.

Everyone thought Moss was done prior to that 1500 yard season.
I'd not make the same mistake with T.O. even if I agreed that the headache wasn't worth the production.

Not that I don't agree w/your contention "that all players eventually decline" (hard to argue that). But Moss was a poor example. The years prior to 2007 (w/the Raiders), Moss pretty much quit, he had no QB among other things. Moss also racked up 1500 yards in 2007 playing catch w/a future HOFer in Tom Brady. In 2008, Moss was playing cat w/a FIRST year QB, there is bound to be drop off not related to the WR's "eventual physical decline".
 

Goldenrichards83

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InmanRoshi;2867965 said:
TO was maybe the most inefficient #1 WR's in the NFL last year. It's a two man race between he and Braylon Edwards. Among the top 20 WRs in targets, only TO and Edwards had below a 50% success rate on their target attempts. A ridiculously bad conversion rate (and a lot of WRs were much more efficient working with much less in QBs and surrounding teammates).

You point to accumulative stats, but they don't speak the entire story and completely ignore efficiency. It's like saying a RB must be good because he had 1,000 yards rushing and double digit TD's and ignoring that he had 3.3 ypc on 330+ carries and that the teams force fed him the ball on the goalline whether he was effective or not (we call this Shaun Alexander Syndrome). Offensive possessions are precious things. A finite resource. Too many were thrown down the toilet last year trying to feed one player who continually put his team in improbable long down and distance situations because he couldn't convert on his targets, which led to punts and three and outs.
Now you add in the fact that TO had Romo healthy for maybe 6 games, how defenses shift his side(lbers, safeties) and Garrett inability to scheme there no wonder why he had those type of ratings. You also fail to mention how many of those teams lost their starting QB, starting RBs and backup and starting LG and he still got over a 1,000 yds with 10tds.

The only way TO hurt this team was in the lockerroom, never on the field. He may have his problems but the guy gives his all 100% of the time. As for target attempts do they take in account how many bad passes came his way? I watched every game and I saw quite a few overthrows, underthrows as well as drops but the target stats don't take in account how many or catchable balls therefore their stats are worthless imo.
 

wileedog

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Goldenrichards83;2868563 said:
The only way TO hurt this team was in the lockerroom, never on the field. He may have his problems but the guy gives his all 100% of the time. As for target attempts do they take in account how many bad passes came his way? I watched every game and I saw quite a few overthrows, underthrows as well as drops but the target stats don't take in account how many or catchable balls therefore their stats are worthless imo.

How many looked like bad passes because TO ran a route poorly or gave up on a play prematurely? There's all kinds of ways to spin it.

Bottom line is every other WR in the league but one - many working in crummy offenses with bad QBs and or not very bright OCs - were a more efficient target than Owens. And I think most of that is because Romo had to keep forcing him the ball to shut him up.

And that hurts the team on the field.
 

Chocolate Lab

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stilltheguru;2867612 said:
AHHH, he's just saying what most of the board is saying. When TO balls out nobody will say a word. The zone way

stilltheguru;2867721 said:
He may be a headache, but the decline talk is humorous. For all the talk about how Skins fans are on ES, it's pretty much the same over here. When a player leaves do everything in your power to put them down and spin it into a plus for the team. Change this site to extremeboys.com

stilltheguru;2868010 said:
I just hope Trent is more grateful when TO makes him a millionaire than Romo was.

:cry2:

stilltheguru;2868091 said:
All my hate for Romo and Roy is out of the window. We'll see what they both are made of come September 13th. No more bitterness from me.

Oh, obviously.
 

Goldenrichards83

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wileedog;2868571 said:
How many looked like bad passes because TO ran a route poorly or gave up on a play prematurely? There's all kinds of ways to spin it.

Bottom line is every other WR in the league but one - many working in crummy offenses with bad QBs and or not very bright OCs - were a more efficient target than Owens. And I think most of that is because Romo had to keep forcing him the ball to shut him up.

And that hurts the team on the field.
TO did run his share of bad routes no argument there.Thats not the bottom line though. Bottom line is the guys QB, both RBs and LG were hurt and please tell me what starting QB in the league is worst than Brad Johnson? I'm not even a TO fan but this notion that TO was the cause of our decline because he himself is a declining player when there were injuries that played a major part in him doing his job well as well as teams defenses focusing strictly on him is somewhat ludicrous.
 

wileedog

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Goldenrichards83;2868602 said:
Bottom line is the guys QB, both RBs and LG were hurt and please tell me what starting QB in the league is worst than Brad Johnson?

No, but there sure are a lot of QBs worse than even an injured Romo for the other 13 games. This isn't about accumulated stats, this is about efficiency.

When a reciever is thrown to as much as anyone else in the league, and those throws are completed as little as anyone else in the league, that hurts the team. Yes injuries to the surrounding casts contribute to that, but at the end of the day plenty of other receivers had bad supporting casts and injuries too. But they were much more efficient at converting attempts into completions. I believe much of that is not only declining skills, but TO himself throwing hissy fits if Romo wasn't trying to complete passes that often just should not have been thrown.

I'm not even a TO fan but this notion that TO was the cause of our decline because he himself is a declining player when there were injuries that played a major part in him doing his job well as well as teams defenses focusing strictly on him is somewhat ludicrous.
Never said TO was the sole cause of our decline. Not even close. Heck I blame the HC much more than I blame TO for not being able to control the situation and for letting the inmates run amok in the asylum.

All I said, contrary to your point, was that TO's declining skills and exploding mouth did in fact hurt the team on the field, not just off of it.
 

Angus

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jterrell;2867062 said:
A lot of good stuff there especially the specifics of what Flo went through last year. His injury was alluded to a few times but no one ever dug to find out what it was. We have a zillion "journalists" willing to dig through T.O.'s garbage but refuse to ask questions that make any player look good for playing hurt.

Seriously, we get either Jerry-hired Mickey Spags as team homer or everyone else as too lazy to produce a real story so they puppet each other with nothing more than their opinions.

I wish Bob and Raphael offered much more fine work.

The Front Office may have put the QT on such injuries to keep opponents from capitalizing on them.

:rolleyes:
 

InmanRoshi

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jterrell;2868003 said:
The problem with your stat here is that it is merely descriptive of a down season, not an illusion to any real condition that exists with T.O. necessarily.

Our own RW11 had one great season while T.O. had one bad one. I don't think we can use either example as evidence of their talent levels. It takes a much broader look.

I don't expect T.O. to be amazing this year or ever again as I don't expect he gets the weapons and offense around him ever again he had in 2007. But he may well have more than he did in 2008 as a Bill this upcoming season. I would expect that young Bill QB eventually grows to hate T.O. but right now like a young Tomy Romo, T.O. can bring him stardom and recognition. As T.O. does silly end zone rituals, it's understood the guy throwing the passes gets mentioned as well.

TO wasn't particularly efficient the year before, although certainly more efficient than last year's abomination. But this isn't a normal WR we're talking about, this is a 35 year old one. It's not surprising to see this dramatic of a decline at that age. The rate of decline isn't always a steady rate ... often times old players fall off a cliff. TO suffered because Romo was out 3 games with injury and the OL struggled, but he still had 13 games with a QB with a 90+ QB rating and the games best TE working down the middle of the field. Andre Johnson and Roddy White, just to name two, would have gladly changed places with TO. (and speaking of Witten, he still had a very high conversion rate, dealing with the same problems TO had).


Also, I recognize your point that TO still saw an inordinate amount of defensive coverage, but really how much of that is the defense reacting to the Cowboys playcalling tendencies? If Im a defensive coordinator Sam Hurd doesn't scare as an offensive weapon, but if the Cowboys have continually demonstrated they are going to stubbornly throw a vast amount of their pass targets to him to keep him happy... of course I'm going to roll coverage his way. The more defenders I put into the area that the Cowboys are forcing the ball into, the more likely I am to get an easy interception. It's not necessarily a bad thing defenses aren't going to roll coverage to just one of our players anymore. It's much more of a strain on a defense to cover the entire field.

Putting aside TO's rabid defenders ... I think even the casual fan has some sort of subjective bias toward TO and give him a pass (on the field) because he still passes the eyeball test. He still looks like a body builder and a freak of nature, and we ignore the obvious fact that he is a very, very old player. But muscle mass has no effect on quick twitch quickness ... which I think TO has lost in spades and a big reason he can't get off against press coverage off the snap anymore. I wonder if people would be nearly as quick to justify TO's decline on the field if he had Torry Holt's body. Not accusing you in particular, just saying in general. I think TO still has the capability to be a very strong #2 WR .. unfortunately, his temperment and ego will never allow him to be a #2 WR. And as Stephen said, as his body and physical ability continues to decline he's not going to just admit he's getting older and slower ... it's going to be someone else's fault. He's not going to be Jerry Rice who goes to Oakland and agrees to be the #2 guy behind Tim Brown, and then goes to Seattle and Denver to play as nickel WRs. IMHO, Buffalo is making a very big mistake holding parades for TO and treating him like some sort of franchise savour, because now they've cemented in his brain that he's still going to be "the man" and the key piece of the offense (if not the franchise). Buffalo would have been much better off if they would have used the low key approach New England used on Randy Moss his first offseason there.
 

Galian Beast

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Owens was a non factor in many games... and many of his yards were garbage extra yards, like his numbers against san fran...
 
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