Switch to 4-3

[flashback]

I think it can be done, or some kind of hybrid system can be worked out. The biggest obstacle I see is at MLB. I don't know if James is your guy, or if you need to sign or draft someone to play that spot. But without a smart, play-making MLB, you're not going to be a very good 4-3 defense.

I'm not too worried about the DL. I think you keep Ware at OLB, so that leaves Spears, Canty, Hatcher, Ferguson, Ratliff, Coleman, and maybe Ellis coming back. Of those guys, I think Spears, Canty and Hatcher really could play outside or inside in the 4-3. And I think they'd be pretty effective against the run, but we'd need a new solution to get after the QB. Whether that's blitzing or moving Ware to DE in the nickel, I don't know.

You've got to tailor your system to your personnell and you've got to go out and get personnell that fit your system. But the most important thing is having a coach who knows the system inside and out. So that's what's going to drive the 3-4/4-3 question. Who is coaching the defense, and which system are they best at coaching?

 

[NextGenBoys]

Ware is a top OLB in the 3-4; would he be as a 4-3 DE? Freeny is a liability against the run and he is actually heavier then Ware. So you have to leave ware as an OLB; that really leaves us with Hatcher as the only 4-3 DE; SPears and Canty I think are not quick enough to be top 4-3 DE's.

Exactly. We'd be taking our best player from a position which he will be an elite player, and moving him to a player where he'd be just "good" at best. No thanks, give me a 3-4 with a new scheme anyday. Stay in Chi-Town Rivera, and keep your 4-3.

 

[Shake_Tiller]

I don't think a switch back to a 4-3 would be impossible, but it would be problematic. First of all, I don't think it's wise to rely too heavily on Greg Ellis making a comeback from his achilles injury. That's a tough one. It's a bonus if he makes it back and is able to play close to his previous ability next year.

Canty and Spears probably are best suited to play 3-4 DE, though either or both might be okay at 4-3 DT. No slam dunk, though. Hatcher might be okay. Until we know otherwise, we have to assume Glymph is a marginal NFL player. Coleman seems to me a classic 3-4 end, and he's not a great player even in that role.

Bradie James could be a problem as a 4-3 MLB, and he probably lacks the speed and quickness to play MLB in a Tampa 2 defense. I don't think Burnett has enough ballast to be a 4-3 MLB, and he's been injury prone. Carpenter might have the physical tools, but it would be a tough projection.

Ware is interesting. He's a good enough player to thrive in either defense, but he seems best suited as a 3-4 LB. And you'd be asking your best defensive player to change positions after watching him develop in his present role.

To be really good in a 4-3, the Cowboys probably would need one more dynamic pass rusher (they need one, anyhow), an athletic MLB, at least one and maybe two DTs. If they move Henry to weak safety, they need a cornerback regardless of the defense they play.

In a 3-4, they're probably looking for a backup NT, a pass rushing outside LB and a CB.

In a 4-3, they're probably looking for two DTs, a pass rushing DE, a MLB and a CB. That's a lot to get in one off season.

Of course, some of the players already on the roster might thrive in those roles, but it is a question mark since they haven't done it in the NFL, especially given the uncertainty due to Ellis' injury.

 

[zeromaster]

I don't want to move back to the 4-3. It seems to me that our defense has basically all the components to run the 3-4, but if we moved to the 4-3 we'd have to spend another draft on getting players to run the scheme. I think it puts us back a year in the development of our defense. Also, Ware would more than likely be a great DE, but why move him? He's one of the preimer rush LBs in the league, why force him to learn another position? And don't say he played it in college. It wouldn't be a seemless transition, it'd take a while for him to get accustomed to DE.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe you have to turn over the majority of the defense to run a 4-3.

The 3-4 advantage is that it's harder to read, which is what makes it sexy for teams to run, when they can run it well. The question is whether Dallas can. Some people feel we can't (is it that 75% of the defense blows chow?), others feel it's too disruptive to change.

There are arguments to be made for not coming this far and then doing a 180 degree turn again. But management (ie. Jones) needs to be careful about committing the organ-I-zation to a particular scheme without having the full staff in place. Otherwise it gives more ammunition to those that want to say that Jones wants to run the show ("socks and jocks") himself.

My opinion: (a) get the staff to make the best use of the people you have with the applicable defensive scheme, or (b) change a reasonably small amount of them to fit a proven scheme. Do what will get you there in the most efficient way.

 

[DC Cowboy]

the only thing I disagree with you is my LB's would be Burnette-James-Ayodele

 

[YosemiteSam]

-Hatcher/Canty/Coleman add to a nice DE rotation. Sure Canty played in a 3-4 in college, but it's not like he's blown up the NFL these past two years, eh?

The last thing you want is a 300 pound DE in a 4-3. All three of them are 295+ As a 4-3 DE you must be able to cover the flat. At 300lbs, that won't be very easy. Most 4-3 DEs range around 260lbs-280lbs. 300lbs is far to heavy for a 4-3 DE. In a 3-4 defense, you have your OLB covering the flat and they usually wieght in at 250lbs-270lbs. Slightly smaller than normal 4-3 DEs

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Canty cannot play DE in a 4-3... if the Boys went that direction, he'd have to move to DT permanently, and I'm not sure he's not too tall for that position...

I also wonder if Hatcher has the requisite speed to play DE in the 4-3, but wouldn't rule out the possibility altogether... but a worst case scenario is that the Boys would have exactly three players suited for 4-3 DE, in Ware, Coleman and Junior Glymph (who is of course a completely unproven commodity at this point)...



I think Spears, like Canty, would be rather bad at DT... Ferguson and Ratliff, sure, and I could see Hatcher moving inside on passing downs... but 3 DTs ain't gonna be enough...

So, not only do we have just six defensive lineman that I think would be well-suited to such a switch, we would have wasted a first round pick on Spears...

I have no real issues with your take on the linebacking, I think we could find enough players currently on the roster to do a good job in the 4-3...

Canty played DE in a 43 while at Virginia, if I'm not mistaken. I actually think he would make a pretty good LDE in a 43.

Spears played in both a 34 and a 43 while at LSU. IMO, he played his best ball as a DT in a 34, 3 technique.

I also think that Burnett would make a much better OLB in a 43 then he does in a 34. JMO.

 

[Hoofbite]

DE
-Ware played 4-3 DE in college. He is a beast and will get 15 sacks in a 4-3. He won't be a liability in the run because of his power. He'll be like Charles Haley (teams tried to run on Haley because of his size but he was always there to make the play) or Jason Taylor.

Personally, I think Ware needs to stay at OLB. Hes really good where he is at and had 11.5 sacks. I don't think another 3.5 sacks is worth the drop off in production at that position if someone else where to take over at OLB. I think Ware could get 15 sacks from OLB if Dallas had a good DC.

-Greg Ellis returns to a position he has played his entire career. Sure he's coming off an injury, but I think he'd get his 6-8 sacks playing opposite of Ware on the line.

I don't know if Ellis is even going to be able to come back. He could go back to DE and it would be nice to have him there but he may never be the same. I would say to look elsewhere expecting Ellis to be gone and if he stays and plays up to his level of the past few years then its all the better.


As far as the rest goes, I really don't have a clue......I would like to see Ware stay at OLB regardless of scheme.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Personally, I think Ware needs to stay at OLB. Hes really good where he is at and had 11.5 sacks. I don't think another 3.5 sacks is worth the drop off in production at that position if someone else where to take over at OLB. I think Ware could get 15 sacks from OLB if Dallas had a good DC.




I don't know if Ellis is even going to be able to come back. He could go back to DE and it would be nice to have him there but he may never be the same. I would say to look elsewhere expecting Ellis to be gone and if he stays and plays up to his level of the past few years then its all the better.


As far as the rest goes, I really don't have a clue......I would like to see Ware stay at OLB regardless of scheme.

The issue here is, who would the good DC be?

In a 43, Ware's ability to rush the passer would be wasted. It would be much easier to scheme him as an OLB in a 43. Much easier to force him into coverage which takes away his natural ability to rush the passer. No, I think he's be much better suited to play DE in a 43.

 

[big dog cowboy]

The issue here is, who would the good DC be?

Someone finally figured out most of our problem.

 

[sonnyboy]

You guys do realize we played some 4-3 this year and not just on third down.

I hope and believe we will play both fronts.

Here are some lineups I think work real well.

Standard 3-4:
RDE Canty
NT Ferguson
LDE Spears
ROLB Ware
RMLB Ayodele
LMLB James
LOLB Carpenter

Big 4-3
RDE Canty
UT Spears
DT Ferguson
LDE Hatcher
ROLB Ware
MLB James
LOLB Carpenter

Standard 4-3
RDE Ware
UT Ratliff
NT Ferguson
LDE Canty
ROLB Roy Williams
MLB Ayodele
LOLB Burnett


Standard 4-3
RDE Ware
UT Hatcher
NT Ferguson
LDE Canty
ROLB Burnett
MLB Ayodele
LOLB Carpenter

Nickle 4 DL
RDE Ware
UT Hatcher
UT Ratliff
LDE Carpenter
NLB R. Williams
NLB Burnett

We need to draft/sign FA at NT/DT.
Ferguson's the only one we have and he's 33. This is a must regardless of how much 4-3 we play.

Another cover type safety. As you see, I think R. Williams would look real good as a 4-3 OLB and a NLB for part of the game, need someone to take his place in the lineup as SS partime.

 

[Deputy493]

It all depends on who we hire.

We should not be "married" to any scheme.

Let the HC and the coordinators determine what we run, I think we could run either effectively and both schemes have been proven to work in the NFL.

 

[TtownCowboy]

james struggled badly in the 4-3, it was with the switch to the 3-4 that he became more noticed.

I thought he struggled in both.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Canty cannot play DE in a 4-3... if the Boys went that direction, he'd have to move to DT permanently, and I'm not sure he's not too tall for that position...

John Henderson is 6'7"

John Dutton was 6'7"

Buck Buchannon was 6'7"

Ernie Ladd was 6'9"

Leon Lett was 6'6"

I think having a 6'7" DT who could move would create an odd miss-match for most guards who are use to dealing with guys that are 6'3" or shorter.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Ware is a top OLB in the 3-4; would he be as a 4-3 DE? Freeny is a liability against the run and he is actually heavier then Ware. So you have to leave ware as an OLB; that really leaves us with Hatcher as the only 4-3 DE; SPears and Canty I think are not quick enough to be top 4-3 DE's.

I don't think Jason Taylor is a liability against the run... neither was Haley.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Agree all the way around. I don't think Canty or Spears are well suited for the 4-3, despite Spears playing it in college. They would be fine against the run, but neither will ever be an effective edge rusher at this level.

Canty was also supposedly having leverage problems at DE, which will only get worse if he moves inside. He's simply not cut out for the 4-3.

Hatcher might be decent, I think he has a good burst. Fergie and Ratlif I think would actually be a superior inside combo, although Ratlif has to prove he can be an every down player, and we have little to nothing behind them unless we move Spears, who might be serviceable there but probably not outstanding.

I think the LBs for the most part are good enough to excell in the 4-3, but James might need replacing in whichever scheme we use. He would be particularly horrible in Rivera's Cover 2 though.

I think BOTH Canty and Spears could be more effective as 4-3 DT's than they have been as 3-4 DE's.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The issue here is, who would the good DC be?

In a 43, Ware's ability to rush the passer would be wasted. It would be much easier to scheme him as an OLB in a 43. Much easier to force him into coverage which takes away his natural ability to rush the passer. No, I think he's be much better suited to play DE in a 43.

Exactly.

As long as Ware has to play OLB there will be times when he has coverage responsibility and we can not afford to have him not rushing the passer.

This defense got skewered when offenses put 3 or 4 WR's on the field and forced Ware to play in coverage.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I still don't see Canty as a 4-3 DE... too slow. But he'd be a quick DT.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Most players, Coaches, and NFL personnel people that I have heard interviewed on Sirius NFL in the last week have said that it would be a very easy transition back to the 4-3, contrary to reports from many mediots.

after thinking about it, I would agree that switching back wouldn't hurt us that much, if we did, this would be the ideal line-up:

LDE: Jason Hatcher-has a unbelievable size/speed ratio, 285 w/ tremendous burst
NT: Jason Ferguson
3-technique DT: Jay Ratliff-seems to have more burst than Spears, spent a couple years as a DT at Auburn
RDE: DeMarcus Ware

WLB: Burnett
MLB: Carp
SLB: Akin Ayodele

and if we use a Tampa cover-2, assuming Rivera calls it, we could just switch Carp and Burnett

we could also use both the 3-4 and 4-3

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I still don't see Canty as a 4-3 DE... too slow. But he'd be a quick DT.

Canty just isn't quick, period