Tampa 2

[jobberone]

I was hoping to learn more about the Tampa 2 although I'm hearing Kiffin will run some variants of it being more a 3-4/4-3 hybrid with some traditional Kiffin stuff and some things like playing a gap and hold at times vs the usual 4-3 over/under gap grabbing D from old.

I'd also like to hear about the history of the D and who is going to play the traditional middle LB vs the weak side one. If they're going to drop the middle LB deep into a cover 3 then I've wondered about using Carter there instead of Lee who seems better equipped/instincts to shoot gaps and defend the run in this defense from the weak side.

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I put up the graphs so those of us not well versed in the offensive and defensive numbering/gap systems can be viewed. These have been handed down from Bear Bryant when he was at A&M.

Hopefully some of you coaches out there will chime in.

 

[jobberone]

Here's a pretty good read on the Tampa 2 to get things started. It's fairly long but not too bad. I do not understand all the coverages.

http://www.gregorydoublewing.com/63_Defense_Tampa_Cover_2___Zone_Coverage_Conceptsx.pdf

 

[Reality]

I am actually curious as to how the Cowboys tampa-2 defense will compare to the tampa-2 defense Kiffin ran with the Buccaneers. I would think he may have to make some adjustments, at least this season, to compensate for differences in personnel between the two teams.

/reality

 

[jobberone]

He's said he's going to run it more like the Seattle defense which is a hybrid 4-3/3-4 and uses their big guys in a one gap hold as well as the standard TA2 gap stuff. He's not run a standard 4-3 in awhile from what I've read. I've got some more diagrams but I didn't want to flood the thread and I really would like some participation from people more knowledgeable than me which shouldn't be too hard.

I still think it may be possible for Carter to play the Mike and Lee the weakside. I read somewhere that they are going to look at both in those positions. Although Lee is not as fast as Carter or have his lateral movement he is so instinctive he gets to a lot of balls in coverage he really shouldn't be able to do on pure athletic ability. So I think either can play.

I also think Wilcox might see more action than you'd normally see in a first year player esp one with only one year as a DB because he just looks like a mini-LB to me. Kiffin seems to like those DBs who can play a little LB as well in special packages. He's also faster than the other safeties which could help him. I still don't think he will start at least at first as Church is going to be pretty good. I just don't know about Allen or Johnson. There are a couple of UDFAs who may compete some at S. The kid from SC State is a combo S/CB and that's a plus in Kiffin's system as well.

 

[Galian Beast]

The middle linebacker is much more involved in reading the offense than the weak side linebacker. The middle linebacker is the cog of the tampa 2 defense.

Carter is an ideal will linebacker in this.

And of course Kiffin will adapt to what we have here. We have two corners who excel at man, so expect to see a lot more man than traditional tampa 2 defenses.

Barry Church doesn't necessarily have the range most safeties would need in the Tampa 2. There are ways of dealing with that to, as you can see in Seattle. So we'll see some 8 man fronts probably.

The biggest misconception I see on this board is on the defensive line. The reality is Kiffin wants 4 pass rushers on the line. The line needs to get out of the quarterback.

The idea for stopping the run is to push the run towards the weak side linebacker.

 

[Galian Beast]

He's said he's going to run it more like the Seattle defense which is a hybrid 4-3/3-4 and uses their big guys in a one gap hold as well as the standard TA2 gap stuff. He's not run a standard 4-3 in awhile from what I've read. I've got some more diagrams but I didn't want to flood the thread and I really would like some participation from people more knowledgeable than me which shouldn't be too hard.

I still think it may be possible for Carter to play the Mike and Lee the weakside. I read somewhere that they are going to look at both in those positions. Although Lee is not as fast as Carter or have his lateral movement he is so instinctive he gets to a lot of balls in coverage he really shouldn't be able to do on pure athletic ability. So I think either can play.

I also think Wilcox might see more action than you'd normally see in a first year player esp one with only one year as a DB because he just looks like a mini-LB to me. Kiffin seems to like those DBs who can play a little LB as well in special packages. He's also faster than the other safeties which could help him. I still don't think he will start at least at first as Church is going to be pretty good. I just don't know about Allen or Johnson. There are a couple of UDFAs who may compete some at S. The kid from SC State is a combo S/CB and that's a plus in Kiffin's system as well.

Hybrid 3-4? That is the first I've heard that.

And wilcox isn't going to play much. He has played safety one year in college, and it's not even a huge program that he did it in. He isn't close to being NFL ready. There are safeties drafted in the 1st and 2nd that aren't NFL ready and they were safeties for 3-4 years in college.

Ask yourself when the last time a 3rd rounder or later became a significant role player here in their first year.

 

[jobberone]

The middle linebacker is much more involved in reading the offense than the weak side linebacker. The middle linebacker is the cog of the tampa 2 defense.

Carter is an ideal will linebacker in this.

And of course Kiffin will adapt to what we have here. We have two corners who excel at man, so expect to see a lot more man than traditional tampa 2 defenses.

Barry Church doesn't necessarily have the range most safeties would need in the Tampa 2. There are ways of dealing with that to, as you can see in Seattle. So we'll see some 8 man fronts probably.

The biggest misconception I see on this board is on the defensive line. The reality is Kiffin wants 4 pass rushers on the line. The line needs to get out of the quarterback.

The idea for stopping the run is to push the run towards the weak side linebacker.

I think we'll still see a lot of traditional Kiffin 4-3 gap grabbing over/under but they'll be a lot of stunting/blitzing to help control gaps. The Mike must drop very deep and I think that is more up Carter's alley. The corners must be able to come up into the soft zone and the Mike must be able to move laterally to cover. I also think Lee is better at shooting the gaps and holes in the offense to play the run than Carter is. A lot better in fact.

I think Lee is capable of playing the Mike though and although not as fast as Carter he makes up for it with instincts. He's so quick to react something that Carter doesn't have as well yet. A marked difference. Carter will be able to cover a lot more ground in coverage though and act more like a third S back there. We'll see.

 

[Reality]

I think we'll still see a lot of traditional Kiffin 4-3 gap grabbing over/under but they'll be a lot of stunting/blitzing to help control gaps. The Mike must drop very deep and I think that is more up Carter's alley. The corners must be able to come up into the soft zone and the Mike must be able to move laterally to cover. I also think Lee is better at shooting the gaps and holes in the offense to play the run than Carter is. A lot better in fact.

I think Lee is capable of playing the Mike though and although not as fast as Carter he makes up for it with instincts. He's so quick to react something that Carter doesn't have as well yet. A marked difference. Carter will be able to cover a lot more ground in coverage though and act more like a third S back there. We'll see.

I think no matter who he chooses to start at mike, Kiffin will work both Lee and Carter at mike to give him a redundancy should the starter in that position get injured. I agree that I think Lee's strength is in attacking the ball near the line. Carter's speed gives him flexibility with both run support and coverage. I like the idea that our four linemen will be attacking the offense as I believe that will improve the play of our linebackers as well as cornerbacks.

/reality

 

[jobberone]

Hybrid 3-4? That is the first I've heard that.

And wilcox isn't going to play much. He has played safety one year in college, and it's not even a huge program that he did it in. He isn't close to being NFL ready. There are safeties drafted in the 1st and 2nd that aren't NFL ready and they were safeties for 3-4 years in college.

Ask yourself when the last time a 3rd rounder or later became a significant role player here in their first year.

Kiffin doesn't play a straight up 4-3 and while I know don't that many Ds in the league apparently most teams play a hybrid defense. We did last year as well. We didn't play a traditional 3-4. And if he plays like Seattle then we will definitely do a lot of different things and present a lot of looks. I'm not sure we will play a lot of one gap hold but maybe so. We don't have the DTs Seattle has that allows them to do that so well. In fact I suspect we will play a fair amount of 3 technique from both DTs. We do have the Price kid though so maybe if he can play health wise and well then he can play more 1 gap grab and some one gap hold as well. Don't know about Lissemore. He may be able to play 1/3. Kiffin's philosophy is to change up enough to not be predictable while allowing the players to learn their assignments well and not get confused with too many schemes. I'm afraid I don't know enough more to talk about some of the other DL schemes or the different coverages.

 

[hra8700]

I dont think we will run a tampa 2. Well run a 4-3 under but our coverages will be a lot of man to man and cover 3 with the corners playing press. I think thats why kiffin said to look to the seahawks coverages, thats the best way to utilize our corners. And its why for the first time this team is looking for a free safety. Itll be hard to run those coverages without an earl thomas.

Basically, the corners will be pressing off the line and responsible for carrying their receivers from the hash to the sidelines. The free safety will play a deep middle zone, barry chirch will be in the box, and there will be linebacker zones underneath.

 

[Little Jr]

Where is this hybird 3-4 stuff coming from? This is the 1st I've heard of it.

 

[BAT]

Where is this hybird 3-4 stuff coming from? This is the 1st I've heard of it.

It's BS or ignorance. Neither Kiffin nor Carol runs any 4-3/3-4 hybrid. And Tampa 2 refers to the coverage, not the front. Like Carroll, Kiffin will mix up his coverages and play cover 1, 2 or 3 mixed in with man/press, man off or man under. Carroll is a Kiffin disciple and he runs the 4-3 under as his base (vs. Jimmy who ran the 4-3 over). This does not mean that Kifin will not change up and run different fronts/coverages, or is running a hybrid, it will just depend on the offensive alignment.

The 4-3 under creates most of the pass rush from the 5 tech (weakside DE) and the 3 tech DT. The 1 technique NT and the 5 technique (strongside DE) have gap control. The SAM will line up as a 9 tech to rush the passer if certain offensive sets present itself. The FS will line up over the split end (opposite the TE) more often than not. If 3 receivers (trips), the SS is called on to cover the slot/flanker while the SAM covers the TE. Unlike some schemes, corners would cover the wide receivers, even if lined up on same side. In 2 TE and 1 back sets, FS covers the 2nd TE (SAM covers the first) and SS plays center field.

Kiffin's (and Carroll's) underlying philosophy is to force the offense to the middle of the field, that the D needs to create turnovers and generate pressure with 4. Very simple.

 

[Galian Beast]

The Tampa 2 certainly isn't just about coverage. That's like saying you're going to run the Tampa 2 out of a 3-4 alignment. It wouldn't be a Tampa 2.

The Tampa 2 is Cover 3 out of the 4-3 under. The fact that he mixes up coverages or defensive line alignments doesn't change this. That is just the basic principle of the scheme.

There is no team in the NFL that has just one set look the entire time they play.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's BS or ignorance. Neither Kiffin nor Carol runs any 4-3/3-4 hybrid. And Tampa 2 refers to the coverage, not the front. Like Carroll, Kiffin will mix up his coverages and play cover 1, 2 or 3 mixed in with man/press, man off or man under. Carroll is a Kiffin disciple and he runs the 4-3 under as his base (vs. Jimmy who ran the 4-3 over). This does not mean that Kifin will not change up and run different fronts/coverages, or is running a hybrid, it will just depend on the offensive alignment.

The 4-3 under creates most of the pass rush from the 5 tech (weakside DE) and the 3 tech DT. The 1 technique NT and the 5 technique (strongside DE) have gap control. The SAM will line up as a 9 tech to rush the passer if certain offensive sets present itself. The FS will line up over the split end (opposite the TE) more often than not. If 3 receivers (trips), the SS is called on to cover the slot/flanker while the SAM covers the TE. Unlike some schemes, corners would cover the wide receivers, even if lined up on same side. In 2 TE and 1 back sets, FS covers the 2nd TE (SAM covers the first) and SS plays center field.

Kiffin's (and Carroll's) underlying philosophy is to force the offense to the middle of the field, that the D needs to create turnovers and generate pressure with 4. Very simple.

Just like Shanahan would never run a pistol offense? After all he never used that before. He's a WCO guy and ran it at Denver, Oakland, and as the Bill Walsh's OC. Guess what. He ran the pistol.

Tampa-2 referred to the defense Kiffin ran when at Tampa. The Tampa 2 no more called cover 2 every play than it did call the under front every play. The primary set of the defense in tampa was cover 2 and the under front. His playbook called for all manner of coverages and fronts. Was it still the Tampa 2? yup.

I get so tired of people writing as if things are definitely going to be this or that when all it is is just a guess. It's one thing for jobber to say that he had heard that and it's quite another to act like you're prescient as to the future. Who knows what Kiffin and his staff has planned certainty? Certainly not us.

Until then it's just speculation.

 

[CyberB0b]

No one really knows. The base defense will probably be a 4-3 Under with Tampa 2 behind it. It is easy to transition to a Cover 3 and 2 Man Under look from the Tampa 2.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/a...Defense-/152c949c-2595-4ac9-b719-e1b6c73113ad

There is an article from Broaddus

 

[Galian Beast]

No one really knows. The base defense will probably be a 4-3 Under with Tampa 2 behind it. It is easy to transition to a Cover 3 and 2 Man Under look from the Tampa 2.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/a...Defense-/152c949c-2595-4ac9-b719-e1b6c73113ad

There is an article from Broaddus

Tampa 2 is cover 3, the difference is that rather than have a corner play deep zone coverage you have a middle linebacker. The two corners and outside linebackers create intermediate zone coverage.

 

[CATCH17]

I like the Carter vs Lee for middle linebacker argument. Thats a tough call for me.

Sometimes that MLB in a Cover 2 scheme has to make some freakishly athletic plays against the pass so it would seem like Carter would have a small edge there.


Tough to call if i'm the coaches but I don't see a wrong decision.

 

[Doomsday101]

I keep thinking about what Kiffin said shortly after coming to Dallas. 3-4/4-3 does not matter it is still 11 guys on defense. Play hard, play smart and play fast. If Kiffin and Marinelli can bring the same intensity to the Cowboys as they have other places they have been then I think this defense is going to be fine. I love the way their players swarm to the ball and once they get there you have guys ripping at the ball. Looking at last year’s Bears and how their defensive players went after the ball relentlessly gives me hope that this group will benefit greatly from these 2 coaches.

 

[Galian Beast]

I keep thinking about what Kiffin said shortly after coming to Dallas. 3-4/4-3 does not matter it is still 11 guys on defense. Play hard, play smart and play fast. If Kiffin and Marinelli can bring the same intensity to the Cowboys as they have other places they have been then I think this defense is going to be fine. I love the way their players swarm to the ball and once they get there you have guys ripping at the ball. Looking at last year’s Bears and how their defensive players went after the ball relentlessly gives me hope that this group will benefit greatly from these 2 coaches.

Well said. I was really in favor of Rob Ryan, but the reality is that he has had limited success in the NFL as a defensive coordinator. Kiffin on the other hand has had limited failure in the NFL as a defensive coordinator. I think he only has a small number of years where his defense wasn't top 10 in the league.

 

[Doomsday101]

Well said. I was really in favor of Rob Ryan, but the reality is that he has had limited success in the NFL as a defensive coordinator. Kiffin on the other hand has had limited failure in the NFL as a defensive coordinator. I think he only has a small number of years where his defense wasn't top 10 in the league.

I think when you take the 2 men Kiffin and Marinelli and given what they have been able to accomplish working together it should give hope to the Cowboys fans. We can talk schemes all day but so much of defense is a mental toughness and aggressiveness. Guys flying to the ball guys making things happen not just waiting for something to happen.

Watching Marinelli Bear teams those guys were on the ball carrier and constantly ripping at the ball and causing the turnovers.