The 3-4 solution

[Nightman]

We should change to the run and shoot on offense too

Get rid of EE, Dak, the OL, Dez and Witten

Then we could afford "War Daddies" at DE and it so much easier to find a shotgun system QB

 

[waldoputty]

4WR formations, read option, double slot wrs ... that fit the talent of the offense talent.
seems like a lot of flexibility is being shown on the offense.

unfortunately progress in the D scheme is being held back by the champion of the tampa-2.
if we stay with the 4-3, at least run zimmer's 4-3 instead of the garbage we run.
that means getting the players needed, not the prevent D whether it is 4DL or 3DL.

 

[Nightman]

We had a top 5 Scoring Defense last year and added nothing but young talent across the board

JSmith, Tapper, Taco, Paea, Cheeto, Lewis and Carroll

let's blow that up to go down the 3-4 rabbitt hole again that even Parcells and RRyan couldn't install

Here is your sign

 

[waldoputty]

Simple decision tree at the end of season.

D progress with improved pass rush from taco and others -> do more of the same
D stagnates or worse -> change coordinator to implement scheme that facilitates the acquisition of the most difficult passrushing piece(s)

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

admit what about size-speed ratio players?
the all-sparq-performance ratio charts were discussed 2 months ago after the taco pick.
this is well known to most who read these threads.

our D was not good last year. it was because the DL sucked.

it is not juts about the GB game and definitely not just about the last play in the GB game. the D as shredded in the Pittsburgh game.
the D's stats simply benefited from the dominant play of the offense.

switching to a 3-4 does 3 things.
1. allows us to nail the passrusher with higher probability. no guarantee, but improves our chance in both the draft and FA.
2. takes your best passrusher (RDE) and remove him from the LT, the best OL on the offense.
3. allows the passrushers to choose ther gap and move around to different gaps as well overload different zones.

in short, 3-4 scheme increases our chances of getting the right specs and puts them in the best possible position to perform.
the 4-3 we play forces us to draft players that are harder to draft, less available in FA, and does not put the players in the best position to succeed.

finally this is a hypothetical scenario, if the D fails us again this year. if the DL steps up (taco, tapper, whoever), then obviously no one wants to change schemes.

not sure how you qualify the D was not good last year. can you qualify and quantify?

we were ranked 13th, 5th scoring defense, 13th in sacks. that's slightly above average. not great, but not bad....DL sucked? how? we were also #1 rushing defense.

you mention the D got shredded again pittsburg..OK...they were #7 offense in the league....and seattle shredded NE defense...which was #8 defense in the league. #1 scoring defense against....

the vaunted offense of the vikings, the 28th ranked offense in the league shredded the Houston texans defense...the #1 defense in the league...OMG lets blow up the texans.....

I disagree that the 3-4 gives us better chance of getting the right specs. how? there inso proof? all the elite players in 3-4 or 4-3 are usually in the top 10-12 picks.....rarely a talent falls and normally its because of a deep draft.....or other concerns...

its your perception that 3-4 is easy to build...proof is that about 15 teams play 3-4....nd they are not top 15 in the league...some suck.

and there are plenty of 4-3 successful Des and defenses in the league...more so than 3-4 based on proven and available stats......

its not easy to draft difference making 3-4 players......its your perception. check out the draft and the LBs taken in the 20th to 30th spot.....in the past 5 years....nothing elite....again its your perception perhaps an infatuation with TJ watt who is also not proven.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

the 3-4 also allows us to RDE away from the LT.
if your scheme allow us to hide the RDE from the LT, we are essentially playing a 3-4 but without the NT because Marinelli is not flexible.

and i forgot to add, LBs generally produce results sooner than DL.
those stats were posted in a taco thread yesterday.

here you go again...LBs produce sooner than DL...so explain Malik Collins?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Simple decision tree at the end of season.

D progress with improved pass rush from taco and others -> do more of the same
D stagnates or worse -> change coordinator to implement scheme that facilitates the acquisition of the most difficult passrushing piece(s)

change schemes, and we re behind 3-4 years of drafting and replacing players.... are you OK with that?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

4WR formations, read option, double slot wrs ... that fit the talent of the offense talent.
seems like a lot of flexibility is being shown on the offense.

unfortunately progress in the D scheme is being held back by the champion of the tampa-2.
if we stay with the 4-3, at least run zimmer's 4-3 instead of the garbage we run.
that means getting the players needed, not the prevent D whether it is 4DL or 3DL.

now we getting to the crux of it...he doesn't like marinelli..... but did you forget we switched from zimmer 4-3 to 3-4, it took 4 years to stock the team and the 3-4 sucked...even with wade

 

[waldoputty]

not sure how you qualify the D was not good last year. can you qualify and quantify?

we were ranked 13th, 5th scoring defense, 13th in sacks. that's slightly above average. not great, but not bad....DL sucked? how? we were also #1 rushing defense.

you mention the D got shredded again pittsburg..OK...they were #7 offense in the league....and seattle shredded NE defense...which was #8 defense in the league. #1 scoring defense against....

the vaunted offense of the vikings, the 28th ranked offense in the league shredded the Houston texans defense...the #1 defense in the league...OMG lets blow up the texans.....

I disagree that the 3-4 gives us better chance of getting the right specs. how? there inso proof? all the elite players in 3-4 or 4-3 are usually in the top 10-12 picks.....rarely a talent falls and normally its because of a deep draft.....or other concerns...

its your perception that 3-4 is easy to build...proof is that about 15 teams play 3-4....nd they are not top 15 in the league...some suck.

and there are plenty of 4-3 successful Des and defenses in the league...more so than 3-4 based on proven and available stats......

its not easy to draft difference making 3-4 players......its your perception. check out the draft and the LBs taken in the 20th to 30th spot.....in the past 5 years....nothing elite....again its your perception perhaps an infatuation with TJ watt who is also not proven.

our D was good enough that we beat the bad teams because of our offense.

we watch the games, so do you really think our DL was good or even acceptable.

the stats are skewed by the dominant offense.

it is not just TJ Watt.
there were even players this draft in the 3rd round and beginning of the 4th round that are OLB passrush candidates like lawson (bengals) and rivers (Pats).

if you look at the sparq charts, there are lots more 240lb LBs with good scores than 275lb DEs that have good scores.
of course it is not just a size-speed thing, but you have better chances if you have a bigger pool.

 

[waldoputty]

change schemes, and we re behind 3-4 years of drafting and replacing players.... are you OK with that?

the premise of my proposal is again we only need to bring in the OLB and the NT.
the Nt is fundamentally easier to get and we may even have one alraedy in ash.

think about this - we start out in a 4-3:
RDE: tapper
3tech: collins
1tech: new NT
LDE: irving
LBs: 1st round pick, jaylon, lee


to shift during the snap count, tapper gets up and becomes the roaming LB
DE: collins
NT: new NT 2nd round pick
DE: Irving
LBs: tapper (pass rusher), jaylon, lee (admittedly small for this) and 1st round pick.
these LBs can threaten rush or drop back.
imagine jaylon and the 1st round pick threaten double a gap blitz forcing the offense to keep the RB and TE in protection.

btw, the RDE is already in some cases standing up in our practice this off season.
i dont remember where this was reported.

dlaw and paea are free agents after the season so there is roster space for the NT.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

our D was good enough that we beat the bad teams because of our offense.

we watch the games, so do you really think our DL was good or even acceptable.

the stats are skewed by the dominant offense.

it is not just TJ Watt.
there were even players this draft in the 3rd round and beginning of the 4th round that are OLB passrush candidates like lawson (bengals) and rivers (Pats).

if you look at the sparq charts, there are lots more 240lb LBs with good scores than 275lb DEs that have good scores.
of course it is not just a size-speed thing, but you have better chances if you have a bigger pool.

we went 13-3. played 6 of the top 15 offenses. we played the games that were on our schedule. so did giants. so did washington. so did philly. so is the stats for NE defense not that good given how good their offense was?

and you mentioned there are players in the middle rounds...aren;t there 3-4 DLs in the middle rounds? like Malik collins? isn't there a bigger pool or just as big pool of good DL men? there were 6 DL men taken in first round of this years draft. and only two OLB...So how's the pool bigger? 3 Des went in the top 10. 6 DL men in 2016, vs, 2 LBS, It was even 5 in 2015. pretty much the same in previous years..... so the real talent pool in the draft doesn't;t seem to be LBs and then you are fishing for that one great OLB....

so your proposal is to take a chance that somebody in the middle rounds is going to end up being good. basically gamble...

and that's just the ROLB.... the most important position in 3-4 defense....but we still would have to replace the rest of the DL to find fit for 3-4 DL, Because throwing body weight ration at it as you have done before and admitted later that it doesn't work, is not the answer. and throwing mid round picks at it, is not the answer.


again, just admit you had a knee jerk reaction, which obviously you did, to the first preseason game of the year, projecting Taco and the DL performance because it didn't meet your expectations......and dominate in the preseason game....and you wanted to think outside the box as you tried to explain and perhaps shot your wad a little too early.

this thread is done....

 

[waldoputty]

we went 13-3. played 6 of the top 15 offenses. we played the games that were on our schedule. so did giants. so did washington. so did philly. so is the stats for NE defense not that good given how good their offense was?

and you mentioned there are players in the middle rounds...aren;t there 3-4 DLs in the middle rounds? like Malik collins? isn't there a bigger pool or just as big pool of good DL men? there were 6 DL men taken in first round of this years draft. and only two OLB...So how's the pool bigger? 3 Des went in the top 10. 6 DL men in 2016, vs, 2 LBS, It was even 5 in 2015. pretty much the same in previous years..... so the real talent pool in the draft doesn't;t seem to be LBs and then you are fishing for that one great OLB....

so your proposal is to take a chance that somebody in the middle rounds is going to end up being good. basically gamble...

and that's just the ROLB.... the most important position in 3-4 defense....but we still would have to replace the rest of the DL to find fit for 3-4 DL, Because throwing body weight ration at it as you have done before and admitted later that it doesn't work, is not the answer. and throwing mid round picks at it, is not the answer.


again, just admit you had a knee jerk reaction, which obviously you did, to the first preseason game of the year, projecting Taco and the DL performance because it didn't meet your expectations......and dominate in the preseason game....and you wanted to think outside the box as you tried to explain and perhaps shot your wad a little too early.

this thread is done....

i dont think NE defense was that good particularly after their trades.

thorton and crawford already played 3-4 DE.

going on my daily stroll, address the rest later