The 3-4 solution

[Verdict]

i thought some here said the 3-4 was better against the run.
there has been so many posts i cannot keep track of who said what.

All I know is our 3-4 got gashed by the run.

 

[Verdict]

i dont pretend to be a draft guru.
this whole thread is only IF taco/tapper/misc fails.

marinelli made the call for taco to fit his system.
he took taco who seemed the higher risk guy to get an edge rush over.
if he is right, we win and he stays.
if he is wrong, we lose and he needs to be canned.
perform or get out.

same with garrett.
if he cannot run the game management better, delegate or get out.

Marinelli also cheered like a 16 year old school girl over Ivey. If Ivy doesn't turn out to at least be a serviceable player I think we should check to see if Marinelli has a screw or two loose.

 

[waldoputty]

All I know is our 3-4 got gashed by the run.

was that with the golden cock ?

 

[Verdict]

As a wise man once said (Well @bkight13 said a few minutes ago), NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!

When the Cowboys played the 3-4 there were constant threads of people wanting to switch back to the 4-3.

Parcells claimed finding 3-4 OLBs was easier, but in reality that turned out to be false.

A 3-4 OLB, especially the Strong Side OLB, has to be a 3-tool players. He must be good against the run, good in coverage and good as a pass rusher. Anthony Spencer turned out to be that guy. Fans didn't like him because he was not a top pass rusher, but they didn't really understand the Strong Side OLB vs Weak Side OLB in those defenses. The Cowboys couldn't find anyone else to do that job and ended up Franchising Spencer 2 times consecutively. They had a guy, Victor Butler, that was a decent pass rusher, but he couldn't handle replacing Spencer because he was far interior in pass coverage and run defense and would get confused in regards to when he need to cover, rush or read-and-react against the run.

Finding a guy that can cover and play the run, especially on the strong side is almost mutually exclusive.

Marinelli's defense is a great compromise (At least in theory) between a traditional 4-3 and the 3-4. He shifts the line to the right which puts the SDE head up on the OT but moves the WDE out away from the OT more like a 3-4 OLB. This allows for smaller DEs on the right side. It makes the RDE and the 3-tech DT the top pass rushers instead of both DEs. The SDE is little more like a 3-4 DE; whereas, the WDE is more like a 3-4 OLB. The big difference is that the DEs don't have to play coverage. It's much easier to find a SDE that can play the run than to find a 3-4 SLB that can play the run and play in coverage.

The Cowboys got 6 sacks from Mayowa (6-3, 240) but he likely wouldn't play in the Giants version of the 4-3 when their DEs and DTs are more evenly balanced in their alignments relative to the Center. They need bigger DEs on the right side than the Cowboys need on the right side.

In addition to all of the above, I hate the concept of switching schemes. You've spent years teaching players one scheme and trying to acquire players for that scheme. Now you're throwing all of that away and starting over.

I will concede that Watt might be that Anthony Spencer type 3-4 OLB that is a 3-tool player, but he was a 1st round pick so it's not as if he was easy to acquire.

Another issue with the 3-4 is that on obvious passing downs, they play a 4-man line like a 4-3 defense except their in Nickel which just like a 4-3 in Nickel is technically a 4-2-5 defense. That means player have to basically learn two positions and it means you carry an NT and backup NT that never play in the Nickel defense. The 3-4 alignment is a run defense alignment. It does allow for some deception in terms of which OLB rushes, but as mentioned before, 3-4 teams don't use a 3-4 in obvious passing situations.

The ILBs in a 3-4 need to be bigger because they have to take on more blocks from OLinemen. That means they are on average not as good in coverage as 4-3 LBs.

Either scheme can work, but it is FALSE to say that it's easier to find players for the 3-4.

I would like for Marinelli to mix in some 3-4 concepts on occasion which they did a little with Demontre Moore playing as a stand-up DE on several snaps in the HOF game.

Other things you can do to "trick-up" a 4-3 is to get a pass-rushing SLB. The Falcons do it with Vic Beasley (15.5 sacks in 2016). The Broncos did it originally with Von Miller. The Seahawks did it with Bruce Irving who is now in that role with the Raiders. One of the LBs leaves the field in the Nickel so it's a natural fit for that pass-rushing LB to move to DE in the Nickel. Jaylon would be this player is he gets back to 100% of his college ability.

Marinelli has also "tricked up" things using the 3-man Line. They can go with either 2 or 3 LBs in that alignment. Last year they often used extra Safeties when they playdc a 3-man line and they had good success with it. Marinelli is more likely to "biltz" from this alignment because he can send a LB or DB and still only have 4 players rushing the passer. This allows for disguising where the pressure is coming from similar to a 3-4, but you don't have the issues with personnel like I've explained above about the 3-4. The Marinelli 3-man line is an inverted 3-4. Instead of the LBs being on the outside with the DL close together on the inside, the outside players are DEs and the interior gaps are covered by LBs with a DL in the middle.

The problem with the Cowboys defense has not been the scheme. The problem has been that much more resources have been invested in the Offense and some of the resources that were invested in the defense have not panned out (Randy Gregory, Claiborne, 50M contract for Carr).

Do you think that Marinelli is conservative by nature or necessity because he has been covering up for poor players??

 

[Verdict]

was that with the golden cock ?

You know it. I have no idea why Marinelli was such a fan. He totally sucked. It makes me think that Marinelli has lost it, or never had it, but had lots of great players to cover up his deficiencies.

 

[waldoputty]

Marinelli also cheered like a 16 year old school girl over Ivey. If Ivy doesn't turn out to at least be a serviceable player I think we should check to see if Marinelli has a screw or two loose.

i remember that video and ivey does not look too great.

my issue is more with marinelli.
he insists on no monster 1tech.
seems like he insisted on his type of DE instead of working with available talent in the OLBs.
some pointed out Gregory, but he insists on using Gregory as a down lineman instead of a LB.

i swear marinelli broke what was left of Ware.
he could probably have protected Ware a lot more by using Ware in a Seattle system LEO.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

do you follow the draft?
do you not know the blue chip DEs are taken first?
and there are LBs still available later in the round.
apply logic much?
i am not going to do your search for you.
do a little research first ?

do you not follow the draft?
do you not know the blue chip ROLB for 3-4 are taken first? Ware, Miller, etc.
and there are LBs, safeties, OL men, etc available in later rounds...

apply logic much?

I have done my search. obviously you haven't done yours and have refused to do so...why? because you know you have no leg to stand on....

 

[waldoputty]

You know it. I have no idea why Marinelli was such a fan. He totally sucked. It makes me think that Marinelli has lost it, or never had it, but had lots of great players to cover up his deficiencies.

marinelli seems to think that the non-stop motor trumps everything else.
he seemed to have forgotten about talent when it came to golden cock.
i remember ryan got ran out of town, but i really wish we would have stayed with the 3-4 but just have refreshed the talent.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

3 man rush and no one who can apply pressure.
and the defense had lots of trouble applying pressure.
not just one play.
and sorry, but i dont drink
the defense stats were buoyed by the dominant defense.
if you dont know that, i dont know how to help you.

OMG. you can't be this clueless... do you even watch the games sober? Rodgers was sacked 3 times. and the last play...the very last play was a 3 man rush

dude...quit...you are flailing in the wind...you are sinking in the quick sand...you are making yourself look stupid...I am trying to help you out...but you are stubbornly idiotic...

an now obviously you are drunk again...the defense stats were buoyed by dominant defense? ***?

 

[waldoputty]

do you not follow the draft?
do you not know the blue chip ROLB for 3-4 are taken first? Ware, Miller, etc.
and there are LBs, safeties, OL men, etc available in later rounds...

apply logic much?

I have done my search. obviously you haven't done yours and have refused to do so...why? because you know you have no leg to stand on....

who was picked first this year?
which position did he played?

who was the 2nd non-QB picked this year?
which position did he played?

when was the first pass rushing LB taken this year? 2nd? 3rd?

what happened to the top 2 DE's in free agency this year?

if you know the answers to these questions, then try to apply just a little deductive logic unlike eagle fans.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

we dont need a top 5 defense.
go ahead and think you have a top 5 defense last year.
what a joke.

taco is a part of the defense that no one can project at this point.
so what?

this thread is based on one scenario, that the D fails us again then switch to a 3-4.
if the D does not fail us because the players (including Taco) progresses, then no need to switch to a 3-4.
is that so tough to understand.
it is a h-y-p-o-t-h-e-t-i-c-a-l
do you understand what that means?
here is a link that can help you in case you need help: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypothetical
i guess it takes some imagination, but i do give cowboys fans the benefit of doubt.

wow we had 36 sacks last year.
proof
wonderful.
our defense, particularly the DL, was pathetic last year.
if you think our DL was a top DL, I dont know how to help you.
if you do not know the defense stats were boosted by the dominant O then I dont know how to help you.
starting to feel like i am chatting with an eagles fan instead of a cowboys fan.

finally GB scored 34 points, not 7 points.
it was not one play, it was most of the game.
our D could not stop them, or any team with a balance top offense like the Steelers.

sure we were playing prevent in the last play.
we did a lot of that because we had no pass rush.
because your 'top 5' defense's DL sucks.

dude,.....dude...quit while you are behind...so you don't fall further behind....you have been given opportunity after opportunity to quit while you were behind...yet you make yourself fall further behind...

top 5 defense? I don't make up fantasy stuff like you do....stats from last year said we were top 5 scoring defense!!! its out there check it out.....
and again you make fool of yourself...you are now saying taco is part of a defense that no one can project, yet you...yes you started this thread saying taco is not much and lets start to rebuild...

dude...quit...I am begging you for your own good quit while you are behind....

and your hypothesis was dumb to begin with....rebuild what? after 4 years of building away from 3-4 that wasn't successful.....spend 3 years to rebuild to another unsuccessful 3-4 defense?

I never said the DL was top..... you are not falling again...sinking in the quick sand even more.....

and you keep flip flopping because now you are obviously drunk again and flip flopping...

you said defense doesn't matter....then it matters, now it doesn't matter, then it matters ...what the heck is it...does a defense matter or not matter?

and again, now you are sounding very frustrated.....got your shorts tied in a knot.....I never said they were top 5 DL....I said they were top 5 scoring defense....I didn't make it up....stats are there.....

you have been given opportunities, but because your premise was illogical to begin with, you have continuously flip flopped, scatter shot and obviously now extremley frustrated...

 

[Verdict]

Greg Hardy, JPP, Suggs are not speed rushing DEs. The current Cowboys would benefit greatly from any of those 3 in their prime. Hardy and JPP are definitely 4-3 RDEs.

I agree that it doesn't matter why kind of DE we have if he puts pressure on the QB. Taco could be like Hardy but that remains to be seen. All things considered a bigger player who has the same speed as a smaller player is the preferred player if all other things are equal.

I think we better hope someone can get it done, whether it is Tapper, Taco or the water boy or it is going to be another long year watching this defense.

 

[waldoputty]

OMG. you can't be this clueless... do you even watch the games sober? Rodgers was sacked 3 times. and the last play...the very last play was a 3 man rush

dude...quit...you are flailing in the wind...you are sinking in the quick sand...you are making yourself look stupid...I am trying to help you out...but you are stubbornly idiotic...

an now obviously you are drunk again...the defense stats were buoyed by dominant defense? ***?

keep thinking we have a great defense and nothing is wrong.
typing defense instead of offense is a t-y-p-o

i noticed you have multiple posts in this thread.
i am really sorry if i have got under your skin so much.

thanks for worrying about my drinking, but i actually do not drink.
but i do appreciate your concern

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

It is damn near impossible to find a really good 4-3 right DE. We tried several times with Pittman, Carver, Ekuban, Ellis and of course Almost Anthony Spencer. I think all of those guys were FIRST round picks. None of them were awe inspiring.

I'm not suggesting that we go to a 3-4 but it seems damn near impossible for us to find a guy like D. Ware. They just don't come along very often.

I appreciate the Cowboys efforts to find one, but a guy like Tapper in the 4th round seems just as likely to be the war daddy as Taco.

no different than Johnson era....we ended up going FA route...so did giants last year....

 

[Verdict]

And yet they drafted the 240 lbs Randy Gregory. They just didn't like Watt.

Gregory was built like a stick. Sort of like Gumby. I thought it was a head scratcher at the time we took him. Too small and frail. Hell we could have drafted Eric Stryker who was a hell of a lot more dynamic pass rusher in college who was also way undersized without the head case Gregory is.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

who was picked first this year?
which position did he played?

who was the 2nd non-QB picked this year?
which position did he played?

when was the first pass rushing LB taken this year? 2nd? 3rd?

what happened to the top 2 DE's in free agency this year?

if you know the answers to these questions, then try to apply just a little deductive logic unlike eagle fans.

myles garrett.... a 4-3 DE....

SOLOMON from stanford...a 4-3 DE.....

first pass rushing LB was TJ WATT taken 30th....but he hasn't even played a down and you assume he will be dominant? ***?

sorry...apply logic to your drivel...you have now completely lost it....

 

[waldoputty]

dude,.....dude...quit while you are behind...so you don't fall further behind....you have been given opportunity after opportunity to quit while you were behind...yet you make yourself fall further behind...

top 5 defense? I don't make up fantasy stuff like you do....stats from last year said we were top 5 scoring defense!!! its out there check it out.....
and again you make fool of yourself...you are now saying taco is part of a defense that no one can project, yet you...yes you started this thread saying taco is not much and lets start to rebuild...

dude...quit...I am begging you for your own good quit while you are behind....

and your hypothesis was dumb to begin with....rebuild what? after 4 years of building away from 3-4 that wasn't successful.....spend 3 years to rebuild to another unsuccessful 3-4 defense?

I never said the DL was top..... you are not falling again...sinking in the quick sand even more.....

and you keep flip flopping because now you are obviously drunk again and flip flopping...

you said defense doesn't matter....then it matters, now it doesn't matter, then it matters ...what the heck is it...does a defense matter or not matter?

and again, now you are sounding very frustrated.....got your shorts tied in a knot.....I never said they were top 5 DL....I said they were top 5 scoring defense....I didn't make it up....stats are there.....

you have been given opportunities, but because your premise was illogical to begin with, you have continuously flip flopped, scatter shot and obviously now extremley frustrated...

oh you said top 5 SCORING defense.
why is that even relevant.
we cannot bank on getting points from a scoring defense when it happens - even from a top 5 scoring defense.

the question is the defense any good.

taco is irrelevant at this point.
no one can project taco at this point.
i have said from the beginning
i have no idea why you think otherwise.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

keep thinking we have a great defense and nothing is wrong.
typing defense instead of offense is a t-y-p-o

i noticed you have multiple posts in this thread.
i am really sorry if i have got under your skin so much.

thanks for worrying about my drinking, but i actually do not drink.
but i do appreciate your concern

OK, I give you the typo....so did NE defense benefit from their great offense? I am using your logic....

and what happened then to NO...who had a the best offense....yet their defense...need I go there...

what you haven't realized and learning is that it takes players, elite players and great players to make an offense or defense work regardless of scheme.

and as I showed you, 5 of top 10 defenses were 4-3. and 3 of top 5 scoring defenses were 4-3. and they didn't have to draft DE in the top 10....

and you assume...yes assume that any player, meeting your right size ratio can be effective in a 3-4...and if that's the case how do you explain the crappy 3-4 defenses? and how come not all teams go to 3-4 if its as easy as you say? meaning finding pass rushing OLBs? or do you claim to be smarter than all the coaches, GMs and DCs in the NFL?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

oh you said top 5 SCORING defense.
why is that even relevant.
we cannot bank on getting points from a scoring defense when it happens - even from a top 5 scoring defense.

the question is the defense any good.

taco is irrelevant at this point.
no one can project taco at this point.
i have said from the beginning
i have no idea why you think otherwise.

you can't be serious?

why is having a top 5 scoring defense relevant? then what's relevant?

and you just showed again you are clueless...top 5 SCORING DEFENSE...not a defense that scores points...a defense that's top 5 in scoring against...holy cow...you can't be this Dense.

and you are the one who started this whole 22 page thread...with..

"We are all hoping Taco plays like Hardy or Bosa."

now, you say Taco is irrelevant?

***?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

marinelli seems to think that the non-stop motor trumps everything else.
he seemed to have forgotten about talent when it came to golden cock.
i remember ryan got ran out of town, but i really wish we would have stayed with the 3-4 but just have refreshed the talent.

ryan got run out of town because he sucked....he went to NO and he sucked there too....he ended up with the worst defense in NFL history!!! yes NFL HISTORY.

his brother gave him a job and he sucked there too and both got fired...

you are not making a strong case for 3-4.