The absurdity of "4-3 personnel"

erod

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ABQCOWBOY;5091523 said:
I agree, it is more difficult to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 IMO but I've already stated that.

I don't agree with your opinion on the rest. It remains to be seen how well we make the transition. I personally think our personnel is good for the switch but we still have weakness' there IMO. Until somebody proves they can play safety, it's a weakness in the worst possible place for a Tampa2. Until Lee proves he can play the MLB in that scheme, it's a weakness. Until we prove that we have the rotation to play a penetrating 4 man front, it's a weakness. I like our chances but we are far from proven IMO.

I agree that we have to have safeties step forward, but this is a much simpler scheme for that position than Ryan's was.

And Johnson and Wilcox are said to look good in OTAs. That's only important at this point because it shows they are playing more than thinking.

I'm certainly not arguing with your description of the difference in assignment and structure, which you've explained well. But I just don't think for good football players it's that big of a deal.

Our deficiencies are the same in either system. We need a 1-tech tackle badly, a SAM linebacker to step forward, and the safeties to ball hawk and hit. Same as before for all intent.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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erod;5091556 said:
I agree that we have to have safeties step forward, but this is a much simpler scheme for that position than Ryan's was.

And Johnson and Wilcox are said to look good in OTAs. That's only important at this point because it shows they are playing more than thinking.

I'm certainly not arguing with your description of the difference in assignment and structure, which you've explained well. But I just don't think for good football players it's that big of a deal.

Our deficiencies are the same in either system. We need a 1-tech tackle badly, a SAM linebacker to step forward, and the safeties to ball hawk and hit. Same as before for all intent.


I don't agree on the Safeties. It might be somewhat easier on the scheme side but physically, the Safeties in a Tampa2 have to be rockstars. We have Barry Church coming off a very serious injury, an unproven 2nd year Rookie in Matt Johnston who has had issue staying healthy, an old in the tooth Will Allen, Danny McCray, a couple of rookies and that's about it.

I agree that those weakness' are their regardless of scheme but in a 34, the actual physical demands of the Safeties are not as great and we have the CBs to make the scheme work. In a Tampa2, I am not sure we do. That remains to be seen.
 

bayeslife

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Good players can play in any scheme. It's as simple as that. Completely agree with OP.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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187beatdown;5091591 said:
Good players can play in any scheme. It's as simple as that. Completely agree with OP.

This isn't true. Good players can play in the right scheme and then, only with the right talent. There are plenty of examples of this.

Exceptional talents can play in any scheme but those are few and far between in the NFL.
 

ScipioCowboy

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187beatdown;5091591 said:
Good players can play in any scheme. It's as simple as that. Completely agree with OP.

Sure about that?

The Hardest Year of Warren Sapp’s Life


The Cowboys may have the personnel to run an effective 3-4. In fact, I venture they do. The only concern I have is 3 technique, and in my opinion, Ratliff would've been even better lined up over the guard's outside shoulder. It would've prolonged his career. My only complaint about the switch is that it came three years too late.

Having said that, there is merit to the personnel argument.
 

T-RO

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Frozen700;5091421 said:
People who say we are forcing a 4-3, with 3-4 talent, don't know football.

I guess Super Bowl champ Tony Dungy doesn't know football because that's exactly what he said.

Oh...and you think he is unfamiliar with the requirements, having coached together with Kiffin at Tampa Bay?
 

Doomsday101

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T-RO;5091629 said:
I guess Super Bowl champ Tony Dungy doesn't know football because that's exactly what he said.

Oh...and you think he is unfamiliar with the requirements, having coached together with Kiffin at Tampa Bay?

So the defense will just be awful right, no chance this unit will be pretty good this season? Just want to know ahead of time.

No doubt more parts will be added down the line but as we stand today these players are incapable of producing?
 

T-RO

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Tony Dungy: For Kiffin’s defense to work, the Cowboys need to find these three pieces.

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***/2013/01/tony-dungy-for-kiffins-defense-to-work-the-cowboys-need-to-find-these-three-pieces.html/
 

T-RO

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Doomsday101;5091630 said:
So the defense will just be awful right, no chance this unit will be pretty good this season? Just want to know ahead of time.

No doubt more parts will be added down the line but as we stand today these players are incapable of producing?

I would have liked to have seen what Ryan might have done with a healthy Lee, Carter, Johnson, Church, Ware, etc. I'm not a fan of the coaching/system change.
 

Doomsday101

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T-RO;5091633 said:
Tony Dungy: For Kiffin’s defense to work, the Cowboys need to find these three pieces.

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***/2013/01/tony-dungy-for-kiffins-defense-to-work-the-cowboys-need-to-find-these-three-pieces.html/

and yet Dungy also said

"Monte is a great coach," Dungy said Friday. "My question is: Are they going to do what their personnel dictates or are they going to change and go to Monte’s system and kind of what he grown these last couple of decades? That’ll be the big thing they’re going to have to do. But they’re getting a great guy. The one thing that’s going to happen is the accountability. There’s going to be hustle and the energy and playing at a passionate level. They’re going to be very, very well prepared. There’s a lot of things that he’s going to bring to the table that’ll help them. My only question is: Are they going to use a couple of drafts and try to put together the personnel for what he did with us in Tampa? Or is he going to say, ‘You know what, here’s what I’ve got: I’ve got two dominate outside linebackers. I’ve got these corners. We’re going to build around them and do what they do best.’ That’ll be the key I guess. He’ll have them playing well, and they’ll play at a high level I’m sure."

Read more here: http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.co...sonnel-for-kiffins-system-.html#storylink=cpy

Chances are there are other things Kiffin will want to add in the meantime there is talent on this defense and I have no doubt Kiffin will work with the talent he has.

Dungy pointed out that Chuck Pagano was successful in Indianapolis with a switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4, with ends Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney successfully adapting despite questions about whether they could be outside linebackers.

"I think great players adapt, but great coaches use their personnel well," Dungy said. "I think it’ll probably be a combination of both [in Dallas]."

Read more here: http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.co...sonnel-for-kiffins-system-.html#storylink=cpy
 

Verdict

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I think that we largely had 4-3 linemen playing in a 3-4 with the exception of Spears, so the transition on the DL may not be that much of an issue. I am a little bit more concerned about teams running at Spencer playing DE. I think he will get exposed against the run playing that close to the line. I think he will put up pretty decent sack numbers, but won't be considered a stud run stopper anymore.
 

Doomsday101

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T-RO;5091635 said:
I would have liked to have seen what Ryan might have done with a healthy Lee, Carter, Johnson, Church, Ware, etc. I'm not a fan of the coaching/system change.

I don't like changing either but there is no excuse for rushing 3 man in long yardage situation and Ryan did that time and again. We had out backer hurt with Lee and Carter and safety McCann in there and we go to a cover defense? Offense just sat there and attacked those areas. Hell go after the QB don't just sit there and hand it to them and that is what Ryan did.

He moved defense players all over the place to confuse the QB? only confusion was on the defensive side of the ball. He sure as hell was not aggressive as his old man was, Buddy attacked and if you beat him on a play he would attack you again he never backed off.
 

Prossman

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Frankly, I find it stupid. I mean.....a miscalculation of reasoning. (My children have informed me that 'stupid' is now akin to an f-bomb, so they're told in wussification class, which falls right after cup stacking period.)
Now that was funny. TBH I think our personel fits the 4-3 better than a 3-4.
 

SilverStarCowboy

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Nice Thread Op.



Also the new Run Pass option used by the NFC Niners, Hawks and Skins can be real nightmare for a 3/4 Defense.
 

theogt

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erod;5091400 said:
It's easy to regurgitate unoriginal opinions. Especially when they sound reasoned and sophisticated. We've all heard our moms do it trying to "fit in" during a Neanderthal football-watching Sunday afternoon. Heck, we all do it in unfamiliar territory from time to time.

Kumbaya over.

The fingernail-on-the-chalkboard regurgitation this offseason has been the ever-so-popular, "Dallas is trying to force 3-4 personnel into a 4-3 scheme, and it won't work."

People I respect have said this, media and former coach alike. The NFL Network characters, struggling with postcareer irrelevance, puke it up ad nauseum.

Frankly, I find it stupid. I mean.....a miscalculation of reasoning. (My children have informed me that 'stupid' is now akin to an f-bomb, so they're told in wussification class, which falls right after cup stacking period.)

Let's completely ignore, for a second, that Demarcus Ware and Anthony Spencer have put their hand down hundreds of times in their careers already, or that Dallas played 4-3 often a year ago. In fact as we contemplate this mud-at-the-wall epiphany, if defensive players only "fit" one scheme....well, our Swiss cheesers certainly didn't fit the 3-4 either, did they? Scrap the team and start over, right?

The myriad of overthought fallacies in this theory would be impressive, if not for its utter garbage.

Can Sean Lee not play middle linebacker in any scheme? Of course he can. So can Carter. In fact, both could excel at outside linebacker, too, which one of them will.

Not worried in the least there.

Have we not clamored to get Jay Ratliff off the nose for years? The off-tackle (3-technique) will benefit him greatly, and possibly extend his career. And Hatcher has basically lined up inside and played well much of his career already. Yes, we need a nose tackle, but we needed that anyway, regardless of scheme.

This should only help.

I'm told we "only have press corners." OK, fine, we have "press corners". Does that mean Carr and Claiborne are useless in a zone? Does that mean Kiffen is disallowed from taking advantage of their press-coverage ability altogether? Does that mean that we might (gasp!), not play the EXACT SAME DEFENSE AS TAMPA did during Bush's first term? Oh my gawd, I KNEW this was going to be a disaster! Please, if anything, the secondary assignments are supposed to be much easier to understand, which should only help our young safeties. I expect our secondary play to improve dramatically.

Check.

Basically, all the fear is tied up in two players, Ware and Spencer. Hmm, so we're missing sleep that two of our best, most experienced players are going to have to adjust to only half their former responsibility? You mean, no longer covering tight ends and running backs 10 yards down field? You mean, rushing the passer EVERY time the other team drops back? And playing the run otherwise? You mean, putting their hand down as they did their entire college career and 1/3 of the time in the pros?

Check mate. It's silly.

We haven't played good defense around here since Zimmer and his 4-3 left town. I've been stomping around about going back to the 4-3 like a child for long as I can remember. I HATE the 3-4, what it does to your best pass rushers and how it takes pass rushing defensive ends out of draft consideration. Defensive lineman should do more than just occupy blockers.

I'll go on record: our defense will be the biggest improvement of the team next year, simply because of a change in scheme and the minds of Kiffin and Marinelli. These guys know what they're doing. The defense is simpler in design and understanding, and they're both known as great teachers. This team HAS considerable defensive talent, and these gents will take advantage of it finally. Unlike Coach Hair the past few.
I can say honestly that this is my favorite post in CowboysZone history, particularly those first 5 or so paragraphs. :)
 

theogt

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I also love that so many people think Kiffen only calls cover 2 and/or zone coverage every play. If he did, every QB in the league would tear the defense apart. You can't stick to one coverage. He'll plan man probably as much as zone and will call every coverage under the sun in order to confuse the offense. He's not Parcells -- he actually knows how to call defense.
 

Ren

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If the Cowboys said they where going to play punters at DE and someone in the media said it was a bad idea this place will fill up with posts trashing the people who said it was a bad idea
 

rwalters31

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ABQCOWBOY;5091523 said:
I agree, it is more difficult to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 IMO but I've already stated that.

I don't agree with your opinion on the rest. It remains to be seen how well we make the transition. I personally think our personnel is good for the switch but we still have weakness' there IMO. Until somebody proves they can play safety, it's a weakness in the worst possible place for a Tampa2. Until Lee proves he can play the MLB in that scheme, it's a weakness. Until we prove that we have the rotation to play a penetrating 4 man front, it's a weakness. I like our chances but we are far from proven IMO.

I believe that some of the writers in this post have a good idea of the scheme that will be run unless the players have a problem executing the skill. I for one still think that the biggest problems this year will be at the tackle positions. The safeties will be big in this defense because I do not think that the tackles will be the pass rushers I see that some think they are. Now, I will say that the first game of the season will prove out my observation. If our tackles do not get to Eli within 3 seconds the Giants receivers will cut our corners a new one. The safeties will have to be "Woodson" good to defend the pass. I do think that our defense is good enough to play the run (unless the safeties are making all the tackles).:)

Have a nice day!!
 

ABQCOWBOY

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theogt;5091817 said:
I also love that so many people think Kiffen only calls cover 2 and/or zone coverage every play. If he did, every QB in the league would tear the defense apart. You can't stick to one coverage. He'll plan man probably as much as zone and will call every coverage under the sun in order to confuse the offense. He's not Parcells -- he actually knows how to call defense.

I don't think anybody ever said this. I think this is a broad statement that you have introduced into the discussion.

Obviously, everybody knows that you change defenses from time to time. However, there are certain principles that are common to schemes. I think this is what is being discussed.
 

Yakuza Rich

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TheCount;5091470 said:
I might be alone, and I don't listen to a lot of talking heads, but I haven't heard all this critisim about our personnel going 4-3 other than the obvious - no true 1 tech, didn't have a Sam and safety questions. All of which are valid.

I don't find the 'no true 1-tech' criticism valid.

Kiffin's defense doesn't run that way.

If we had a Zimmer or Dick Jauron style of 4-3, then it would be a valid criticism.

It would be like criticizing the Lions for not having a true 1-tech because neither Suh or Fairley are true 1-techs. And you could criticize every defense Kiffin has ever had because he never had a 'true 1-tech.'

The other two are a bit iffy. Particularly the SAM backer position. It's just not a position that is highly valued in most 4-3's. If you have a good SAM backer, that's great. If you don't, it's generally not a big deal. Particularly in Kiffin's defense as I don't think he's ever had a really good SAM backer. He usually looks for an experienced veteran who has speed.

The safety criticisms are more valid because our safeties stunk for the past 3 years and were about as bad as it got last year. However, the counter to that is Kiffin has generally never put a lot of eggs in the safety basket. He generally likes veterans or guys he got in the middle rounds of the draft. He had Free Safeties that were playmakers for him and once they hit FA, he let them go and just plugged in somebody else to take over.

I'm a little more concerned with how Kiffin's defenses played at USC. I could counter that with my belief his son is a terrible head coach and the college game is different. I also wonder about how our special teams will be since going to the 4-3 means less linebackers who are usually the better special teams players.






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