The absurdity of "4-3 personnel"

[theogt]

I don't think anybody ever said this. I think this is a broad statement that you have introduced into the discussion.

Obviously, everybody knows that you change defenses from time to time. However, there are certain principles that are common to schemes. I think this is what is being discussed.

Any criticism that our corners are "man corners not zone corners" is a gross misinderstanding of NFL defenses, regardless of who the coordinator is. A cover 2 is a cover 2 whether you're running a 3-4 or 4-3. People think "oh Tampa 2 means they'll run a cover 2 zone every play". But every coordinator, including Kiffen, mixes up man and zone and coverage calls. Kiffen may emphasize minor details more than others, but there are only so many things you can do with a secondary -- there's very little difference in coverage calls from Belichick to Kiffen to Mike Zimmer. To be honest it makes little difference who the coordinator is in terms of coverages, generally.

 

[TNCowboy]

The absurd thing is the notion that this is no change. If the defense fails - yet again - this year, the same people who are acting as though it is no change at all will be using it as an excuse for Jason Garrett and Jerry Jones.

Parcells said it was a huge change. He said it took his scouts a couple of drafts just to understand the types of players that are needed.

Pat Kirwan - love him or hate him, he talks to more GMs than almost anyone on the planet - said that the rash of teams switching to 3-4 the last several years was for 2 reasons. More teams were in the 4-3, so the pool of players better suited to play in the 3-4 was deeper. Also, the most important piece in the 4-3 defense, a disruptive 3 technique DT, has become the most difficult player to find apart from QB. He said it used to the be the Demarcus Ware type that was hard to find....now it's more difficult to find a Warren Sapp type.

Do we have a disruptive 3 technique? I don't see him. I don't see a DL not named Ware that causes much concern for a defense at all. Certainly not Ratliff. With most of the other guys, it's wishful thinking and projection, none have proven much, other than Spencer, who has proven he could be mediocre until a big contract was on the line.

 

[VACowboy]

Do we have a disruptive 3 technique? I don't see him. I don't see a DL not named Ware that causes much concern for a defense at all. Certainly not Ratliff. With most of the other guys, it's wishful thinking and projection, none have proven much, other than Spencer, who has proven he could be mediocre until a big contract was on the line.

I think this absolutely remains to be seen.

 

[erod]

I think this absolutely remains to be seen.

Especially if Ratliff is suspended.

 

[erod]

I don't agree on the Safeties. It might be somewhat easier on the scheme side but physically, the Safeties in a Tampa2 have to be rockstars. We have Barry Church coming off a very serious injury, an unproven 2nd year Rookie in Matt Johnston who has had issue staying healthy, an old in the tooth Will Allen, Danny McCray, a couple of rookies and that's about it.

I agree that those weakness' are their regardless of scheme but in a 34, the actual physical demands of the Safeties are not as great and we have the CBs to make the scheme work. In a Tampa2, I am not sure we do. That remains to be seen.

John Lynch was a three-year nobody backup until Kiffin arrived. He said that Kiffin simplified things, which made him a better player.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

who cares, our 3-4 personnel wasn't exactly the best either. We complained about not having the right DT's, DE's, depth at DL and LB every year.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I'll go on record: our defense will be the biggest improvement of the team next year, simply because of a change in scheme and the minds of Kiffin and Marinelli.

I won't argue with that point. But I will mention the injury situation really took a lot out of last years defense.

 

[xwalker]

It's not absurd at all. Ask a Parcells two-gap 34 group to play Kiffin's scheme and it would be ugly.

Yes, the 3-4 vs 4-3 issue is overblown. There are more differences between some 3-4 defenses (Parcells vs Ryan) than there are between some 3-4 and 4-3 defenses.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Defensive effectiveness in the NFL is far more 'volatile' than offensive effectiveness.

Meaning that from year-to-year, offenses are more likely to stay the same in their effectiveness. OTOH, defenses are more likely to have a bad year and then a good year and then a bad year. Part of this is what makes Kiffin's track record in Tampa remarkable, he was able to consistently produce top-10 defenses almost every single year he was in Tampa.

This volatility is due to the offense revolving around the QB. If you have a good QB, you're likely to be at least fairly competent on offense each year. The other part is that defensive players are more than twice as likely to get injured than offensive players. Thus a rash of injuries can come thru and decimate the defense.

I think Ratliff is more than disruptive. His problem has been staying healthy. When he's been hurt, he's either stunk or not played. But when he's been healthy, he's been really good. And if you don't think Hatcher is disruptive on defense, that's a massive oversight (same with Spencer).





YR

 

[Idgit]

...The other part is that defensive players are more than twice as likely to get injured than offensive players. Thus a rash of injuries can come thru and decimate the defense.

YR

This is a nice little tidbit. I'd never thought about that before. Thanks for sharing it, Rich.

And, yeah, I agree on both Ratliff and Spencer when they're healthy. Health's a big question, but Ratliff can still contribute a ton if he's not on the bench or hobbled.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Any criticism that our corners are "man corners not zone corners" is a gross misinderstanding of NFL defenses, regardless of who the coordinator is. A cover 2 is a cover 2 whether you're running a 3-4 or 4-3. People think "oh Tampa 2 means they'll run a cover 2 zone every play". But every coordinator, including Kiffen, mixes up man and zone and coverage calls. Kiffen may emphasize minor details more than others, but there are only so many things you can do with a secondary -- there's very little difference in coverage calls from Belichick to Kiffen to Mike Zimmer. To be honest it makes little difference who the coordinator is in terms of coverages, generally.

No, it's not. Our CBs play a physical style of coverage. We drafted them specifically because they fit that style of play. We signed them because they fit that style of play. If what you are saying is that a Cover2 and a Tampa2 are the same, then that's completely wrong. Yes, every coordinator mixes up the coverages but there are still very specific base coverages that dictate what style of play or player you need to run the scheme. Our CBs may be able to play in a zone just fine but they are best suited to play a press style of football. On the other hand, they may not be able to play real well in a Zone. I think they should be OK with it but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the strength of their game and it's still an issue from a cap perspective. CBs who can play Press are more expensive, it stands to reason that you don't need to have big money invested their if the majority of the coverage responsibilities are going to be zone coverage based. Financially, it's a problem.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

John Lynch was a three-year nobody backup until Kiffin arrived. He said that Kiffin simplified things, which made him a better player.

That's fine but if Lynch had not had the physical ability, it wouldn't have mattered how easy it seemed, Lynch would not have played.

 

[CF74]

Especially if Ratliff is suspended.

Very valid point I forgot about his DWI. It seems the press has been quiet about the status of his troubles lately...

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Very valid point I forgot about his DWI. It seems the press has been quiet about the status of his troubles lately...

I doubt he gets suspended since there's no precedent for a player like him getting suspended after 1 'simple' DUI.





YR

 

[Nation]

What he did was idiotic but there is no precedence to suspend Ratliff

 

[xwalker]

No, it's not. Our CBs play a physical style of coverage. We drafted them specifically because they fit that style of play. We signed them because they fit that style of play. If what you are saying is that a Cover2 and a Tampa2 are the same, then that's completely wrong. Yes, every coordinator mixes up the coverages but there are still very specific base coverages that dictate what style of play or player you need to run the scheme. Our CBs may be able to play in a zone just fine but they are best suited to play a press style of football. On the other hand, they may not be able to play real well in a Zone. I think they should be OK with it but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the strength of their game and it's still an issue from a cap perspective. CBs who can play Press are more expensive, it stands to reason that you don't need to have big money invested their if the majority of the coverage responsibilities are going to be zone coverage based. Financially, it's a problem.

There are different types of zone coverage. It is possible to play a press-type technique at the line and still be in zone coverage. In the Tampa-2, with 3 deep zones across the field, the CBs can be aggressive without the fear of getting beat deep. This type of zone coverage is much different than the zone coverage where the CB plays 8 to 10 yards off the WR to avoid getting beat deep.

 

[erod]

What he did was idiotic but there is no precedence to suspend Ratliff

The local talk here is 4 games.

When you're arrested for DUI, there is no free pass from the league. That's for testing positive for majijuana by the league and whatnot. Actual arrests are way different.

 

[Nation]

The local talk here is 4 games.

When you're arrested for DUI, there is no free pass from the league. That's for testing positive for majijuana by the league and whatnot. Actual arrests are way different.

DUIs don't fall under the personal-conduct policy. Drunk driving gets processed under the substance-abuse policy. And the substance-abuse policy provides that, ordinarily, a player will only be fined for a first-offense DUI.

 

[Clove]

I wonder how we managed to go from a 4-3 to a 3-4? It's not hard my friend.

 

[theogt]

No, it's not. Our CBs play a physical style of coverage. We drafted them specifically because they fit that style of play. We signed them because they fit that style of play. If what you are saying is that a Cover2 and a Tampa2 are the same, then that's completely wrong. Yes, every coordinator mixes up the coverages but there are still very specific base coverages that dictate what style of play or player you need to run the scheme. Our CBs may be able to play in a zone just fine but they are best suited to play a press style of football. On the other hand, they may not be able to play real well in a Zone. I think they should be OK with it but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the strength of their game and it's still an issue from a cap perspective. CBs who can play Press are more expensive, it stands to reason that you don't need to have big money invested their if the majority of the coverage responsibilities are going to be zone coverage based. Financially, it's a problem.

There is no such thing as a "base coverage" in the NFL, for any team. Jeez. How do people watch so much football and still not know how defenses work?

Our corners played lots of zone last year. And lots of man. They will play lots of zone this year and lots of man.