The Blocked Punt

pansophy

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Think of it this way. It's 4th and 25 and they go for it. They attempt a pass, which is tipped by the opponent, but one of their own players catches the ball. However, he doesn't advance past the first down marker. Their obligation to get a first down isn't somehow magically wiped out just because the ball was touched by the opposing team. It should be the same on a punt. In fact, it actually is on a fake punt. If they do a fake punt and complete a pass, but fail to advance past the first down marker, they don't maintain possession. That's fair. It wouldn't be any different if the opposing player tipped the ball, but their player caught it. Advance past the first down marker or not's not a first down.

The way the rule stands is absurd. It rewards a team for screwing up and getting their punt blocked. It could be 4th and 45 and they would get the ball back with a fresh set of downs after just a one-yard gain. Absurd.
You've actually just explained why the rule is the way it is. How do you distinguish a fake punt, a blocked punt, from a punt? In the first two scenarios, the offense would need to advance the ball past the first down marker just as you explained. It's only when the ball is punted -- defined by kicking the ball past the LOS -- that it is considered a change of possession and all punting rules applied.

What everyone seems to keep leaving out is that if none of our players touch the ball there is no scenario in which the punting team can recover it, let alone advance it. It doesn't matter that the ball was partially blocked, the punting team still can't get the ball back.

This play does not require a rule change. After the punt crossed the LOS, our guy either needs to never touch the ball or make damn sure he is able to secure it. That's what happened.
 

MarcusRock

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Actually I think it is because it rewards a team that did everything wrong. They did not gain first down yardage then allowed their punt to be blocked, then were rewarded with a first down. That's not a good rule regardless.

It's viewed as a muff but really that should only apply to the downfield punt returner in my opinion. This is very different than a muff because it was a block. On a block or tip that goes beyond the line of scrimmage the ball should automatically be downed and receiving teams ball at the point of contact with any player, Seems more fair than rewarding a team that made a mistake.
It was the right call under the rules, but it's a stupid rule.

Cowboys never got possession of the ball, so it should have all still been part of the same 4th down play, and since they did not get 1st down yardage the ball should have turned over on downs. This rule punishes the team that made the positive play and rewards the team that made the negative play.

You're looking at getting your punt blocked as a negative play in all circumstances. The only negative in this case is that the punt didn't travel as far as they wanted it to but as for the punt itself, they did "just enough" by getting it past the LOS. The rule is simple. Behind the LOS, you're responsible for getting it past the 1st Down marker to continue that same set of downs, get it past the LOS and you're off the hook for that same set of downs and it's the other teams' chance to secure possession for their set of downs. The punt was successful enough.
 

OmerV

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The negative play was touching a live ball. The positive play was not giving up on it in case the other team made a bone headed play. I admit that it seems a bit counterintuitive to block a punt and not get the ball but it is the rule and should have been practiced along with the punt block scheme that ended up blocking the punt.
You're right, whatever the rule the team needs to know it and put it in practice, so the Cowboys did make a mistake. I just think the rule doesn't make sense. The offense should still have to get the ball across the 1st down mark.

I can't help but feel if this happened at a key point in a playoff game the league would look into changing the rule
 

OmerV

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You're looking at getting your punt blocked as a negative play in all circumstances. The only negative in this case is that the punt didn't travel as far as they wanted it to but as for the punt itself, they did "just enough" by getting it past the LOS. The rule is simple. Behind the LOS, you're responsible for getting it past the 1st Down marker to continue that same set of downs, get it past the LOS and you're off the hook for that same set of downs and it's the other teams' chance to secure possession for their set of downs. The punt was successful enough.
I understand the rule, but I still think it's ridiculous. In my mind since possession never shifted to the Cowboys it should still be incumbent on the offense to get the ball across the point needed for a first down.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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I understand the rule, but I still think it's ridiculous. In my mind since possession never shifted to the Cowboys it should still be incumbent on the offense to get the ball across the point needed for a first down.

The ball changes possession the second it’s punted and goes past the LOS. Understanding that is fundamental.
 

OmerV

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The negative play was touching a live ball. The positive play was not giving up on it in case the other team made a bone headed play. I admit that it seems a bit counterintuitive to block a punt and not get the ball but it is the rule and should have been practiced along with the punt block scheme that ended up blocking the punt.
I don't have a problem with the fact that the ball was recoverable by the punting team after the Cowboys touched it, I just don't like that it negated the need to get a first down. To me it should be treated as if the punting team had fumbled the ball and everyone was scrambling for it. In that case the punting team would still need to get the first down yardage to keep the ball. Instead it's treated as if the Cowboys had gained possession and then fumbled, and to me that doesn't make sense.
 

glimmerman

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Yeah it was the right call. I forgot the part about resetting to first down. I thought it was still a 4th down play and even if they recovered it had to be past the first down line. Our guy looked like he was trying to catch it and run instead of recovering. Is a dumb rule that should be changed in the offseason.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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I don't have a problem with the fact that the ball was recoverable by the punting team after the Cowboys touched it, I just don't like that it negated the need to get a first down. To me it should be treated as if the punting team had fumbled the ball and everyone was scrambling for it. In that case the punting team would still need to get the first down yardage to keep the ball. Instead it's treated as if the Cowboys had gained possession and then fumbled, and to me that doesn't make sense.

lol

The punting team cannot advance the ball, so how does that make any sense?

You’re also failing to understand the act of punting is an automatic change of possession once it goes past the LOS.

End of story.
 

OmerV

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lol

The punting team cannot advance the ball, so how does that make any sense?

You’re also failing to understand the act of punting is an automatic change of possession once it goes past the LOS.

End of story.
I am not failing to understand that the ball is considered to have changed possession when the ball is punted past the line of scrimmage - I get how the rule works - I just don't think it makes sense. I think this situation should be treated as a loose ball, same as if the defense had forced a fumble.
 

Reverend Conehead

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It’s not a bad rule because you’re describing it inaccurately.
  1. The ball was blocked
  2. The ball went past the LOS
  3. The receiving team failed to secure the ball past the LOS when trying to field it
  4. The punting team recovered
If I described that same play to you rand told you it happened 30 yards down the field you wouldn’t think twice about because that’s what you’ve likely seen before in watching all your years of football.

The play that happened yesterday is literally line-for-line the same thing only it happened closer to the LOS.

The first down marker has ZERO to do with it.

That's not the point. For the one hundred zillionth time, my point is not that the rule was not applied correctly. My point is the rule should be .....

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I'm not saying there's currently a requirement for the team to advance to the first down marker. I'm saying there should be such a requirement. In other words, not IS but ....

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Back when fans were frustrated that officials couldn't use replay to fix a bad call, no sane fan was arguing that the refs should use replay in violation of the existing rules to verify or overturn a call. They were arguing that the game would be better if the rules were ....

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I hope that clears things up.
 

Cowboysheelsreds053

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That's not the point. For the one hundred zillionth time, my point is not that the rule was not applied correctly. My point is the rule should be .....

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I'm not saying there's currently a requirement for the team to advance to the first down marker. I'm saying there should be such a requirement. In other words, not IS but ....

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Back when fans were frustrated that officials couldn't use replay to fix a bad call, no sane fan was arguing that the refs should use replay in violation of the existing rules to verify or overturn a call. They were arguing that the game would be better if the rules were ....

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I hope that clears things up.

LOL
 

MarcusRock

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The ball changes possession the second it’s punted and goes past the LOS. Understanding that is fundamental.

Actually, change of possession happens the moment the ball is secured by a returner. The Cowboys returner had a "chance" to secure possession of the kick and muffed it.

ARTICLE 3. CHANGE OF POSSESSION. A change of possession occurs when a player of the defensive team secures
possession of a ball that has been kicked, passed, or fumbled by a player of the offensive team, or when the ball is awarded to
the opposing team by rule. A change of possession includes, but is not limited to:
(a) An interception of a forward pass;
(b) A catch or recovery of a fumble or backward pass;
(c) A catch or recovery of a Scrimmage Kick, Free Kick, or Fair-Catch Kick;

(d) When the offensive team fails to reach the line to gain on fourth down; or
(e) When the offensive team misses a field-goal attempt
 

kmp77

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Yeah, this is a dumb rule and should be changed. The only way the kicking team should be able to regain possession is if the returner muffs it, fumbles it, or on any fumble after the receiving team takes control of it. Makes no sense how blocking a punt could even hurt you at all.
 

MarcusRock

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I am not failing to understand that the ball is considered to have changed possession when the ball is punted past the line of scrimmage - I get how the rule works - I just don't think it makes sense. I think this situation should be treated as a loose ball, same as if the defense had forced a fumble.

It would have been treated as a fumble had they blocked the kick and kept it behind the LOS. It's the same for a Field Goal. You can get that blocked and it can either still make it though the uprights or the defense can return it if it gets past the LOS and falls short of the uprights. The offense can only advance it (using the same set of downs) if it gets blocked behind the LOS. So if you change this rule then you have to change the FG rule too because they're governed by the same LOS principle. That one happens way more often and it works just fine. You just can't be a dunce on defense and muff an opportunity to possess the ball (if you should possess the ball a la Leon Lett).
 

Plankton

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Here's an honest question - if the Cowboys were the ones who had their punt blocked, and the Broncos muffed it one yard past the LOS, and the Cowboys recovered it and retained possession, would anyone be harping on how this was a bad rule?

I think we all know the answer to this.
 

RJ_MacReady

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The kicking team should have to get the beyond the first down marker to maintain possession. It was 4th down and possession had not changed. The rule in this instance should require advancement past the marker. If a punt is blocked and the punter (or any other member of the kicking team) picks up the ball and takes off, they have to pick up a first down to keep the ball. Same thing should logically apply here. We never had possession of the ball and it was 4th down. Common sense.
This right here. A blocked punt should be seen as a fumble on 4th down. Unless the recieving team advances it past the 1st down marker, it's should be turnover on downs with one exception:
- If a member of the receiving team gains and maintains possession of the ball (advances/football move, etc.) and then fumbles it back to the kicking team, then a new set of downs is awarded to the kicking team.

Just touching the ball shouldn't constitue possession. It sure as hell doesn't in a lot of other situations in football, so I don't why it does for a blocked punt. Sure, it makes it a "live ball", but automatically awarding a new set of downs for that is why people think its a dumb rule. If it happened more often in the NFL, the ruled would probably be revised.
 
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CalPolyTechnique

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That's not the point. For the one hundred zillionth time, my point is not that the rule was not applied correctly. My point is the rule should be .....

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I'm not saying there's currently a requirement for the team to advance to the first down marker. I'm saying there should be such a requirement. In other words, not IS but ....

SHOULD
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SHOULD
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Back when fans were frustrated that officials couldn't use replay to fix a bad call, no sane fan was arguing that the refs should use replay in violation of the existing rules to verify or overturn a call. They were arguing that the game would be better if the rules were ....

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I hope that clears things up.

Yeah, and you’re asking for it to be changed because you don’t understand the existing rules.

What you’re arguing is akin to saying a batter that’s been intentionally walked should be required to swing at pitches.

Likewise, it’s completely non-sensical to say a blocked kick should be advanced past the first down marker.

lulz.
 
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